On one hand, this is a very well-reasoned, nuanced, and empathetic piece on all sides, and it portrays a good view of the NLOG phenomenon for outsiders (i.e. boys, men, males, and people like me) who had little to no view of that culture, so I thank you for writing it.
On the other, as a former emotionally stunted and bullied boy* with few positive role models (of any gender), I have to admit something uncomplimentary about myself: if it weren't for NLOGs, I probably would have had zero female friends growing up. I'm not sure what effects this would have had on my ability to sympathize with female perspectives, but I'm sure it wouldn't have been good. That evergreen feminist canard to "just see women as people/human beings" sprung to mind while I read this piece, because I am fairly certain NLOGs (the same ones I'm sure many self-identified feminists would have loathed) actually did more to help me see women as people and human beings than all the tumblr posts talking about schrodinger's sex offenders and how misandry is actually an act of self-care as long as it's funny.**
*the word "former" is debatable here, if you ask my therapist
**to be fair, and I say this unironically, some of the man-hating jokes on there were pretty clever. Gotta respect game.
-----
"...I suppose I was asking for it by naming it “The Nice Feminist” with a tagline that stated “where the author isn’t a jerk...”
"...I very naively believed I could somehow explain feminism to both the general public and to these MRA men in a way that other feminists I saw didn’t or wouldn’t: politely and, maybe most importantly, with men’s gender-based concerns in mind, as well. And then, upon hearing my most reasonable takes and sincere empathy, they’d call a truce and accept feminism as valid. (Spoiler: this did not happen.)"
While this might be slightly tongue-in-cheek, I'm old enough to remember that old tumblr blog whatabouttehmenz, and being pleasantly surprised that there were actual websites on tumblr that approached masculinity with something resembling compassion***.
(***I originally had an even more snarky comment here, but I felt it was unproductive and unfair and deleted it. I'm replacing it with just a wistful observation that the people who were most likely to say men were stunted toxic babies who should be more compassionate, were also the most likely to overlap with the people saying men don't have real problems and should shut up and take a seat. Let's just say the people telling me to bottle up my feelings and suck it up weren't always cishet boomer republican white men.)
I understand that dealing with angry men's rights activists on the internet was (and is) not pleasant, and I don't have any wish to defend their behavior. However, if it is any consolation, from my own personal experience, I believe it is likely your compassion had a very positive effect on many of the men who did read your content, even if they may not have been in the best personal place to express it, or if they were drowned out by the loud voices of those who felt otherwise.
I appreciate your comment, because when I was "that NLOG," I was friends with a lot of guys who were like you describe yourself as being back then. It was a lot of guys like that that influenced who I am today.
I also remember that old Tumblr blog! I read it when I was in the midst of my own feminist blogging at the time.
I'm very late but this one spoke to me a lot, and very well written as usual. There's so much writing here that's of low quality that seems to exist for the sake of content generation, and everything you write is so thoughtful.
1. I definitely was a NLOG, and I see that there is a distinction between that behavior and an honest assessment of the shortcomings among both men and women in terms of anti-social behavior. It is a plain fact for many of us that we're stifled in women's spaces and less stifled in male spaces. I think the comfort we feel, however, in male spaces also leads other women to be suspicious.
2. I 100% had an unhealthy relationship with the male gaze during this period - my self worth, I must admit, did tie into male attention, without realizing. I did a lot of self work and this became evident as a result. I actually was unfaithful in my relationship and that was a radical break for me. After the regret stemming from that event, I never sought male attention again, and it now has nothing to do with my self worth. However, I still find men far easier to get along with socially, and to be more fun overall. Maybe it's because I have some stereotypically male inclinations in my personality, but I still find my preference for male company to be strong.
3. I have a LOT more women friends these days like you and all my male friends are largely married, making the friendship either strained or non-existent. This is, of course, because, when men get married, women friends are put at a distance because their partners are often jealous of female friends if they're attractive. I've seen this so often, and it sucks to lose friends.
4. I think that despite having been NLOGs, I don't know if I would accept the accusation of internalized misogyny. E.g., my earliest identity was that of feminist. Before puberty even I knew that women were treated unfairly because I saw it in my own family and culture. That is the opposite of misogyny. I remained this way until college, even though I had experienced nothing but rejection from girls throughout until college, even from girls I thought were my friends. In college, I made female friends. But I also noticed that no matter the friend group, if all women, I was almost always the butt of a joke - I was the one they made fun of, and this was pretty hurtful at the time because it was about the ways in which I didn't fit in. That kept a low level of distrust bubbling within me that then became molten lava as I experienced all sorts of humiliation and job loss and reputational destruction because a woman didn't like me. Women have helped my career, but of those who have hurt it, women are the majority. Is this not justified distrust of women as a class? Maybe not, but if one starts out trusting and repeatedly has that trust broken, would a person not be distrustful of those people as a class? I don't think this observation is internalized misogyny but I have constantly been accused of it. The word misogyny has little meaning to me.
5. "...and the fact that so many feminist-identified women balk at the notion of female bullying and mistreatment of one another being uttered aloud really only proves the point."
This right here proves that there's no sisterhood; there's only the inclination of bullying accompanied by a stricture on talking about it. That is self-serving bs, as we both know. And this vicious cycle about observing shitty female behavior and calling is a death spiral for me - I have fully gone in the direction of operating from a place of distrust unless it's someone like you - curious women.
6. I, too, find incurious people tiring. I noticed though that intellectual conversation about abstract topics is absent in women's spaces. I find this sort of conversation easier and more common in male company, not least because men tend to be more interested in these topics and because women's groups seem to default to discussing celebs, entertainment, other people, and events, and I just find it excruciating to be in these conversations. Many women would call this statement internalized misogyny, but my eyes and ears show me that the concerns of college educated women are largely shallow and self-centered. I can't help but conclude this from the myriad experiences I've had in women-only spaces. I run away from them now.
Finally, the pick me girl: I find this, too, to be a problematic moniker. It refuses to recognize that maybe the pick me girl is just making the point that women treat her badly. Why would a woman dubbed a pick me for having deviant opinions or behavior not feel shitty for being called this? I've been called a pick me girl not because I'm going after some guy but because of my deviating opinions about the shitty ways in which women behave. The point isn't to be picked, it's to speak a plain fact that women actively suppress through the enforcement of groupthink and authoritarian tendencies in our spaces. There is always a hierarchy, always a queen bee, and always a butt of the joke.
I especially appreciate what you said in #6. This is part of what made hanging out with women feel so boring to me in my early twenties, especially, as more abstract concepts and topics interested me, and I have many male friends to thank for introducing me to a number of different ideas I might not have come across otherwise.
I find that women I spend time with these days are more interested in discussing these things, but from an almost exclusively left-wing identity politics perspective, which is frustrating. For example, I can appreciate the usefulness of critical theory as a means to analyze broader societal patterns, but I have issues with the way it's handled interpersonally. The conundrum I find myself in lately is trying to voice even a mildly contrary opinion while avoiding an angry and friendship-ending reaction, rather than a curious or interested one, from the women I talk to about any number of sociopolitical or philosophical issues. Sometimes I don't even know if I'm going to get that angry reaction, but I automatically expect to, especially since a few years ago when my former (female) best friend very unceremoniously ended our 12-year friendship after accusations of internalized misogyny. She could not grasp that I might just have contrary opinions that have nothing to do with men, but that simply came as a result of my own thorough research and differing perspective. Ironically, by assuming that my differing opinions were influenced directly by a man (my husband, she thought, in this case), she was the one being quite misogynistic by assuming I didn't have the capability to independently form my own opinions (while naturally believing her own to be fully independent and correct as a matter of course).
I usually use "NLOG" and "pickme" interchangeably, at least in this essay, because that's what most people do on the internet when they're using the terms against other women. And it's the most frustrating, based on my personal experiences, because like you say, it's usually used against me because of an opinion I've thought through and dared to speak aloud rather than an actual case of misogyny, internal or otherwise.
I've been lucky when it comes to male friendships after marriage, but I've definitely experienced male friends pulling away due to a jealous partner. My husband, thankfully, has a number of close female friends, so we've both been able to avoid that jealousy in our own relationship easily enough, as we both know what it's like to tend to relate better with the opposite sex.
I am super curious about something, though: do you, or have you, had a lot of *gay* male friends in particular? Because I did not back during my more NLOG-y years. Many women I knew in my twenties did have at least one close gay male friend, and while I was friendly acquaintances with many gay people (Minneapolis is a very gay place), gay men around my age just never seemed to like hanging out with me. This has also changed as I (and they) got older and I have more gay male friends now, too, but my working theory from back in my twenties is that a lot of the younger gay men in Minneapolis were into the same things that many of the twenty-something women were into which, as we've established, was not what I was doing back then, like clubbing or watching the Oscars or whatever. I think at that time I was friends with more lesbians or bi women than men, probably because of a similar gender-non-conforming dynamic we shared, even though I'm straight.
There is one more thing I've noticed, and I don't know if you can relate, but as for me, I am naturally a pretty friendly person. I will be nice to anyone who isn't an asshole to me first, and this comes naturally to me. This makes a lot of other women, especially on the east coast where I live now, think I am "fake." This is such an irritating phenomenon. I don't have any reason whatsoever to put up a front with someone when I first meet them; I am, very simply, just being a nice and polite person, like I was raised to be. It's baffling to me how many people jump to the "fake" conclusion instead of just realizing that I'm not an asshole.
Thanks for writing such a thoughtful comment! It gave me a lot to think about, as usual, and it's always relieving to hear from another woman who *gets it*.
I wonder if people think you’re fake because of the suspicion of white women that white women , especially, have developed. I say this with utmost seriousness. I’ve never gotten the accusation of inauthenticity but I still try to be warm and bubbly, so perhaps the contents coming out of my body can be off putting. I think part of this is, as you and others have said, jealousy, pure and simple.
I know this feeling intimately of immediately being on guard for emotional conflict if you say anything remotely contrarian; there’s literally never curiosity about why I said something, just suspicion. I’m sitting on an essay right now about this exact authoritarianism among women in friendships which makes me want to drop most women I consider friends because they are simply intellectually incurious - that’s been rattling around in my head since I read it in this essay, so I wrote 5k words about the topic including the pickme and NLOG :-D
And yes, two of my best friends are gay men; somehow seems like a pattern with masculine women. I think, too, there’s a lot out there about gender non conformity but an interesting lack of attention to masculine women, I suppose, because of masculinity being toxic. People like us are supposed to be “non-binary” instead, whatever that means. A fallacy. I think feminine women who present masculine in their communication and ideation are ripe targets for takedown perhaps because we are comfortable in male spaces and benefit from physical attractiveness. Just a theory, curious what you think.
I think I’m temper-mentally similar to you (Or, at least, a lot of what you said resonated with me). I’m hyperactive ADHD but the “good” kind (hereditary, from my dad, comes with “high intelligence”) so I was cloistered away in gifted class until middle school (probably protective).
It’s the automatic presumption of malicious intentions in this younger female group that always stung with me. Like how overly friendly “that’s fake” (so what if it was? Who cares? It’s superficial pleasantries, you have to convince someone you’re nice? They won’t believe you!).
I’m 40 (married, 2 kids), I originally come from the faction of the Right (In South Florida) that was “fiscal-conservative, secular,” “highly-educated” liberal arts university attending.
Political Science & Chemistry (bio minor). I’ve always made friends naturally with leftists, I deeply admire their sincerity. I similarly wish that among friends/others, topics could be more provocative or controversial (even theoreticals) without feeling like you’re walking on eggshells.
—— Celebrity Gossip theory: do you think this holds water?
Socially, women are supposed to be able to make conversation as a social politeness with less-familiar acquaintance-groups of women.
So this means you can talk about the weather, politics, or about real-life people you all know. This is a bad idea because: (1) you’re not sure if everyone knows this person, and (2) you’re not sure they all get along and (3) talking about real-life people as chit-chat -> gossip risk.
Women are aware celebrity gossip is fake: it’s PR-arrangements, artificial dramas, contracted relationships. It doesn’t matter if it’s real or fake. Celebrity gossip is about archetypes, it’s unwanted knowledge as if your brain absorbs it from the checkout lane, and you can say whatever you want (controversially, etc) because it’s just a dumb fake celebrity story.
But how people weigh in on themes or some theoretical situation can sometimes tell you a lot about them generally. Note, everyone talks as if the situation that’s unfolded is “confirmed” nobody questions sources or accuracy even though the public has record low trust of real news journalism?
For example: remember when Britney Spears a decade ago was had her “shaved-head, rock-bottom spectacle” & afterwards she released her blood-draw test results. Did finding out she was stone-cold sober for 30 days ‘change everything’?”
Someone who says: “No? It doesn’t matter if it’s drugs/alcohol or mental illness, it’s trashy!” You can probably get a good idea of how they feel about depression.
It’a possibly still inane but on a “what is being discussed isn’t what’s actually being communicated” makes it more intriguing!
I completely track with what you're saying. Especially the very last summary that what is being talked about is not necessarily the same as what's being communicated. I hadn't thought of it like that before and you're so right. And also, especially, that yes, polite niceties are normal and good in society!
From my outside perspective, the "sisterhood" is real only when there's an outside (aka male) threat: women have an in-group bias and men do not. Men actually have an out-group bias, at least in modern America.
That isn't much of a sisterhood but it's so different from the male experience that it's notable.
Oh yikes, I had never heard of the NLOG concept until this post but now I realize I totally was one. And also now that I’m out as non-binary, is that just the ultimate NLOG statement?? So much to think about. Thank you!!
You express you grievances with a dynamic that is ever present, but rarely discussed I open for what it is (and when it is, people take it to an autistic level).
Essentially, men and women are programmed differently to succeed in reproduction. Whether we want to admit it or not all human behavior is derived from the necessity to either reproduce or survive.
With that said, men compete (outside of general physical attractivemess) through skill and resources acquisition. It is why sports, doing "epic shit", ranking of skill, etc. are all inherent behaviors in men.
Conversely, women compete by tearing down the competition which manifests in the aforementioned behaviors that lead you to being a NLOG.
I have two daughters and I can sympathize. It is what it is and I can only discourage that behavior in my daughters and make them aware of it to help them in navigating intrasexual competition amongst other girls.
Also, yeah. You found put the hard way that men tend to befriend women they want to sleep with. I will tell you, married men are no exception, so be cautious.
Glad to hear you are coming into your own. I write what I'm sure would be "sexist" material aimed at men to make their lives better. But with that said, I am open to hearing the experiences of women and providing my two cents.
I understand the rift that seems to be growing between men and women, but I truly think if we took the time to understand our differences and except them (as infuriating as they can be at times) we form better relationships where both men and women will benefit.
“Also, yeah. You found put the hard way that men tend to befriend women they want to sleep with. I will tell you, married men are no exception, so be cautious.”
A man who genuinely wants friendship will likely either try to befriend your husband or get you to befriend his wife. You’re now in a “safe” place in his social circle - he gets to hang out with you without role ambiguity
The only way I’ve seen a stable M-F friendship between singles is if it’s primarily an enabler for a shared activity AND he doesn’t consider you to be girlfriend material for him
I was an archetypal NLOG *despite* being fairly low on the hotness. I did have choice female friends, but I heavily divested from "young femininity". In hindsight, it was 80% at least driven by my being "sexually weird", which only many years later I realised meant being dominant (and toppy). But the arc this post describes still roughly fits.
The most striking thing I have observed is that as I got older (I'm definitely at the "it's all downhill from here or will be very soon" stage now), the women got SO MUCH BETTER, and the men got SO MUCH WORSE -- and I'm not even sure if its just relative effect caused by women's "improving with age" described in this post. This is an entirely real life observation and doesn't apply to media and public people, among those I still see a disparity of reason, emotional processing and appeals to sympathy that I saw in my late teens / early 20s in favour of men. But in my actual meatspace existence women my age come across as more interesting and more enjoyable to interact with and more emotionally together than men. I've not unpacked that (could be entirely circumstantial) but it's definitely a thing in my life.
I absolutely relate to that last part about, as I get older, women become more interesting and enjoyable to interact with to me, as well. I never really thought about it like that!
I hear similar comments from so many women, although never from alpha women. And I think one of the key drivers in many young women’s desperate need to find a mate is to establish some solid foundation, some haven from the constant middle school-y power games, tests and manipulations they must endure within their close female friend group. Exhausting. Honest question: is it really a coincidence that our society is being riven so dramatically at precisely the time that women have asserted a more dominant - perhaps the dominant - voice in our culture and society?
NLOG feels a bit like “I never loved you anyway” except applied to female friendship rather than romance.
“Pick me” seems to be a generic insult for a female using her positive traits to directly attract (or keep) a mate rather than affirm the currently “approved” female status game
(edited for various typos and formatting.)
--
On one hand, this is a very well-reasoned, nuanced, and empathetic piece on all sides, and it portrays a good view of the NLOG phenomenon for outsiders (i.e. boys, men, males, and people like me) who had little to no view of that culture, so I thank you for writing it.
On the other, as a former emotionally stunted and bullied boy* with few positive role models (of any gender), I have to admit something uncomplimentary about myself: if it weren't for NLOGs, I probably would have had zero female friends growing up. I'm not sure what effects this would have had on my ability to sympathize with female perspectives, but I'm sure it wouldn't have been good. That evergreen feminist canard to "just see women as people/human beings" sprung to mind while I read this piece, because I am fairly certain NLOGs (the same ones I'm sure many self-identified feminists would have loathed) actually did more to help me see women as people and human beings than all the tumblr posts talking about schrodinger's sex offenders and how misandry is actually an act of self-care as long as it's funny.**
*the word "former" is debatable here, if you ask my therapist
**to be fair, and I say this unironically, some of the man-hating jokes on there were pretty clever. Gotta respect game.
-----
"...I suppose I was asking for it by naming it “The Nice Feminist” with a tagline that stated “where the author isn’t a jerk...”
"...I very naively believed I could somehow explain feminism to both the general public and to these MRA men in a way that other feminists I saw didn’t or wouldn’t: politely and, maybe most importantly, with men’s gender-based concerns in mind, as well. And then, upon hearing my most reasonable takes and sincere empathy, they’d call a truce and accept feminism as valid. (Spoiler: this did not happen.)"
While this might be slightly tongue-in-cheek, I'm old enough to remember that old tumblr blog whatabouttehmenz, and being pleasantly surprised that there were actual websites on tumblr that approached masculinity with something resembling compassion***.
(***I originally had an even more snarky comment here, but I felt it was unproductive and unfair and deleted it. I'm replacing it with just a wistful observation that the people who were most likely to say men were stunted toxic babies who should be more compassionate, were also the most likely to overlap with the people saying men don't have real problems and should shut up and take a seat. Let's just say the people telling me to bottle up my feelings and suck it up weren't always cishet boomer republican white men.)
I understand that dealing with angry men's rights activists on the internet was (and is) not pleasant, and I don't have any wish to defend their behavior. However, if it is any consolation, from my own personal experience, I believe it is likely your compassion had a very positive effect on many of the men who did read your content, even if they may not have been in the best personal place to express it, or if they were drowned out by the loud voices of those who felt otherwise.
I appreciate your comment, because when I was "that NLOG," I was friends with a lot of guys who were like you describe yourself as being back then. It was a lot of guys like that that influenced who I am today.
I also remember that old Tumblr blog! I read it when I was in the midst of my own feminist blogging at the time.
I'm very late but this one spoke to me a lot, and very well written as usual. There's so much writing here that's of low quality that seems to exist for the sake of content generation, and everything you write is so thoughtful.
1. I definitely was a NLOG, and I see that there is a distinction between that behavior and an honest assessment of the shortcomings among both men and women in terms of anti-social behavior. It is a plain fact for many of us that we're stifled in women's spaces and less stifled in male spaces. I think the comfort we feel, however, in male spaces also leads other women to be suspicious.
2. I 100% had an unhealthy relationship with the male gaze during this period - my self worth, I must admit, did tie into male attention, without realizing. I did a lot of self work and this became evident as a result. I actually was unfaithful in my relationship and that was a radical break for me. After the regret stemming from that event, I never sought male attention again, and it now has nothing to do with my self worth. However, I still find men far easier to get along with socially, and to be more fun overall. Maybe it's because I have some stereotypically male inclinations in my personality, but I still find my preference for male company to be strong.
3. I have a LOT more women friends these days like you and all my male friends are largely married, making the friendship either strained or non-existent. This is, of course, because, when men get married, women friends are put at a distance because their partners are often jealous of female friends if they're attractive. I've seen this so often, and it sucks to lose friends.
4. I think that despite having been NLOGs, I don't know if I would accept the accusation of internalized misogyny. E.g., my earliest identity was that of feminist. Before puberty even I knew that women were treated unfairly because I saw it in my own family and culture. That is the opposite of misogyny. I remained this way until college, even though I had experienced nothing but rejection from girls throughout until college, even from girls I thought were my friends. In college, I made female friends. But I also noticed that no matter the friend group, if all women, I was almost always the butt of a joke - I was the one they made fun of, and this was pretty hurtful at the time because it was about the ways in which I didn't fit in. That kept a low level of distrust bubbling within me that then became molten lava as I experienced all sorts of humiliation and job loss and reputational destruction because a woman didn't like me. Women have helped my career, but of those who have hurt it, women are the majority. Is this not justified distrust of women as a class? Maybe not, but if one starts out trusting and repeatedly has that trust broken, would a person not be distrustful of those people as a class? I don't think this observation is internalized misogyny but I have constantly been accused of it. The word misogyny has little meaning to me.
5. "...and the fact that so many feminist-identified women balk at the notion of female bullying and mistreatment of one another being uttered aloud really only proves the point."
This right here proves that there's no sisterhood; there's only the inclination of bullying accompanied by a stricture on talking about it. That is self-serving bs, as we both know. And this vicious cycle about observing shitty female behavior and calling is a death spiral for me - I have fully gone in the direction of operating from a place of distrust unless it's someone like you - curious women.
6. I, too, find incurious people tiring. I noticed though that intellectual conversation about abstract topics is absent in women's spaces. I find this sort of conversation easier and more common in male company, not least because men tend to be more interested in these topics and because women's groups seem to default to discussing celebs, entertainment, other people, and events, and I just find it excruciating to be in these conversations. Many women would call this statement internalized misogyny, but my eyes and ears show me that the concerns of college educated women are largely shallow and self-centered. I can't help but conclude this from the myriad experiences I've had in women-only spaces. I run away from them now.
Finally, the pick me girl: I find this, too, to be a problematic moniker. It refuses to recognize that maybe the pick me girl is just making the point that women treat her badly. Why would a woman dubbed a pick me for having deviant opinions or behavior not feel shitty for being called this? I've been called a pick me girl not because I'm going after some guy but because of my deviating opinions about the shitty ways in which women behave. The point isn't to be picked, it's to speak a plain fact that women actively suppress through the enforcement of groupthink and authoritarian tendencies in our spaces. There is always a hierarchy, always a queen bee, and always a butt of the joke.
I especially appreciate what you said in #6. This is part of what made hanging out with women feel so boring to me in my early twenties, especially, as more abstract concepts and topics interested me, and I have many male friends to thank for introducing me to a number of different ideas I might not have come across otherwise.
I find that women I spend time with these days are more interested in discussing these things, but from an almost exclusively left-wing identity politics perspective, which is frustrating. For example, I can appreciate the usefulness of critical theory as a means to analyze broader societal patterns, but I have issues with the way it's handled interpersonally. The conundrum I find myself in lately is trying to voice even a mildly contrary opinion while avoiding an angry and friendship-ending reaction, rather than a curious or interested one, from the women I talk to about any number of sociopolitical or philosophical issues. Sometimes I don't even know if I'm going to get that angry reaction, but I automatically expect to, especially since a few years ago when my former (female) best friend very unceremoniously ended our 12-year friendship after accusations of internalized misogyny. She could not grasp that I might just have contrary opinions that have nothing to do with men, but that simply came as a result of my own thorough research and differing perspective. Ironically, by assuming that my differing opinions were influenced directly by a man (my husband, she thought, in this case), she was the one being quite misogynistic by assuming I didn't have the capability to independently form my own opinions (while naturally believing her own to be fully independent and correct as a matter of course).
I usually use "NLOG" and "pickme" interchangeably, at least in this essay, because that's what most people do on the internet when they're using the terms against other women. And it's the most frustrating, based on my personal experiences, because like you say, it's usually used against me because of an opinion I've thought through and dared to speak aloud rather than an actual case of misogyny, internal or otherwise.
I've been lucky when it comes to male friendships after marriage, but I've definitely experienced male friends pulling away due to a jealous partner. My husband, thankfully, has a number of close female friends, so we've both been able to avoid that jealousy in our own relationship easily enough, as we both know what it's like to tend to relate better with the opposite sex.
I am super curious about something, though: do you, or have you, had a lot of *gay* male friends in particular? Because I did not back during my more NLOG-y years. Many women I knew in my twenties did have at least one close gay male friend, and while I was friendly acquaintances with many gay people (Minneapolis is a very gay place), gay men around my age just never seemed to like hanging out with me. This has also changed as I (and they) got older and I have more gay male friends now, too, but my working theory from back in my twenties is that a lot of the younger gay men in Minneapolis were into the same things that many of the twenty-something women were into which, as we've established, was not what I was doing back then, like clubbing or watching the Oscars or whatever. I think at that time I was friends with more lesbians or bi women than men, probably because of a similar gender-non-conforming dynamic we shared, even though I'm straight.
There is one more thing I've noticed, and I don't know if you can relate, but as for me, I am naturally a pretty friendly person. I will be nice to anyone who isn't an asshole to me first, and this comes naturally to me. This makes a lot of other women, especially on the east coast where I live now, think I am "fake." This is such an irritating phenomenon. I don't have any reason whatsoever to put up a front with someone when I first meet them; I am, very simply, just being a nice and polite person, like I was raised to be. It's baffling to me how many people jump to the "fake" conclusion instead of just realizing that I'm not an asshole.
Thanks for writing such a thoughtful comment! It gave me a lot to think about, as usual, and it's always relieving to hear from another woman who *gets it*.
I wonder if people think you’re fake because of the suspicion of white women that white women , especially, have developed. I say this with utmost seriousness. I’ve never gotten the accusation of inauthenticity but I still try to be warm and bubbly, so perhaps the contents coming out of my body can be off putting. I think part of this is, as you and others have said, jealousy, pure and simple.
I know this feeling intimately of immediately being on guard for emotional conflict if you say anything remotely contrarian; there’s literally never curiosity about why I said something, just suspicion. I’m sitting on an essay right now about this exact authoritarianism among women in friendships which makes me want to drop most women I consider friends because they are simply intellectually incurious - that’s been rattling around in my head since I read it in this essay, so I wrote 5k words about the topic including the pickme and NLOG :-D
And yes, two of my best friends are gay men; somehow seems like a pattern with masculine women. I think, too, there’s a lot out there about gender non conformity but an interesting lack of attention to masculine women, I suppose, because of masculinity being toxic. People like us are supposed to be “non-binary” instead, whatever that means. A fallacy. I think feminine women who present masculine in their communication and ideation are ripe targets for takedown perhaps because we are comfortable in male spaces and benefit from physical attractiveness. Just a theory, curious what you think.
I think I’m temper-mentally similar to you (Or, at least, a lot of what you said resonated with me). I’m hyperactive ADHD but the “good” kind (hereditary, from my dad, comes with “high intelligence”) so I was cloistered away in gifted class until middle school (probably protective).
It’s the automatic presumption of malicious intentions in this younger female group that always stung with me. Like how overly friendly “that’s fake” (so what if it was? Who cares? It’s superficial pleasantries, you have to convince someone you’re nice? They won’t believe you!).
I’m 40 (married, 2 kids), I originally come from the faction of the Right (In South Florida) that was “fiscal-conservative, secular,” “highly-educated” liberal arts university attending.
Political Science & Chemistry (bio minor). I’ve always made friends naturally with leftists, I deeply admire their sincerity. I similarly wish that among friends/others, topics could be more provocative or controversial (even theoreticals) without feeling like you’re walking on eggshells.
—— Celebrity Gossip theory: do you think this holds water?
Socially, women are supposed to be able to make conversation as a social politeness with less-familiar acquaintance-groups of women.
So this means you can talk about the weather, politics, or about real-life people you all know. This is a bad idea because: (1) you’re not sure if everyone knows this person, and (2) you’re not sure they all get along and (3) talking about real-life people as chit-chat -> gossip risk.
Women are aware celebrity gossip is fake: it’s PR-arrangements, artificial dramas, contracted relationships. It doesn’t matter if it’s real or fake. Celebrity gossip is about archetypes, it’s unwanted knowledge as if your brain absorbs it from the checkout lane, and you can say whatever you want (controversially, etc) because it’s just a dumb fake celebrity story.
But how people weigh in on themes or some theoretical situation can sometimes tell you a lot about them generally. Note, everyone talks as if the situation that’s unfolded is “confirmed” nobody questions sources or accuracy even though the public has record low trust of real news journalism?
For example: remember when Britney Spears a decade ago was had her “shaved-head, rock-bottom spectacle” & afterwards she released her blood-draw test results. Did finding out she was stone-cold sober for 30 days ‘change everything’?”
Someone who says: “No? It doesn’t matter if it’s drugs/alcohol or mental illness, it’s trashy!” You can probably get a good idea of how they feel about depression.
It’a possibly still inane but on a “what is being discussed isn’t what’s actually being communicated” makes it more intriguing!
I completely track with what you're saying. Especially the very last summary that what is being talked about is not necessarily the same as what's being communicated. I hadn't thought of it like that before and you're so right. And also, especially, that yes, polite niceties are normal and good in society!
From my outside perspective, the "sisterhood" is real only when there's an outside (aka male) threat: women have an in-group bias and men do not. Men actually have an out-group bias, at least in modern America.
That isn't much of a sisterhood but it's so different from the male experience that it's notable.
Oh yikes, I had never heard of the NLOG concept until this post but now I realize I totally was one. And also now that I’m out as non-binary, is that just the ultimate NLOG statement?? So much to think about. Thank you!!
You express you grievances with a dynamic that is ever present, but rarely discussed I open for what it is (and when it is, people take it to an autistic level).
Essentially, men and women are programmed differently to succeed in reproduction. Whether we want to admit it or not all human behavior is derived from the necessity to either reproduce or survive.
With that said, men compete (outside of general physical attractivemess) through skill and resources acquisition. It is why sports, doing "epic shit", ranking of skill, etc. are all inherent behaviors in men.
Conversely, women compete by tearing down the competition which manifests in the aforementioned behaviors that lead you to being a NLOG.
I have two daughters and I can sympathize. It is what it is and I can only discourage that behavior in my daughters and make them aware of it to help them in navigating intrasexual competition amongst other girls.
Also, yeah. You found put the hard way that men tend to befriend women they want to sleep with. I will tell you, married men are no exception, so be cautious.
Glad to hear you are coming into your own. I write what I'm sure would be "sexist" material aimed at men to make their lives better. But with that said, I am open to hearing the experiences of women and providing my two cents.
I understand the rift that seems to be growing between men and women, but I truly think if we took the time to understand our differences and except them (as infuriating as they can be at times) we form better relationships where both men and women will benefit.
“Also, yeah. You found put the hard way that men tend to befriend women they want to sleep with. I will tell you, married men are no exception, so be cautious.”
A man who genuinely wants friendship will likely either try to befriend your husband or get you to befriend his wife. You’re now in a “safe” place in his social circle - he gets to hang out with you without role ambiguity
The only way I’ve seen a stable M-F friendship between singles is if it’s primarily an enabler for a shared activity AND he doesn’t consider you to be girlfriend material for him
Spot on.
I was an archetypal NLOG *despite* being fairly low on the hotness. I did have choice female friends, but I heavily divested from "young femininity". In hindsight, it was 80% at least driven by my being "sexually weird", which only many years later I realised meant being dominant (and toppy). But the arc this post describes still roughly fits.
The most striking thing I have observed is that as I got older (I'm definitely at the "it's all downhill from here or will be very soon" stage now), the women got SO MUCH BETTER, and the men got SO MUCH WORSE -- and I'm not even sure if its just relative effect caused by women's "improving with age" described in this post. This is an entirely real life observation and doesn't apply to media and public people, among those I still see a disparity of reason, emotional processing and appeals to sympathy that I saw in my late teens / early 20s in favour of men. But in my actual meatspace existence women my age come across as more interesting and more enjoyable to interact with and more emotionally together than men. I've not unpacked that (could be entirely circumstantial) but it's definitely a thing in my life.
I absolutely relate to that last part about, as I get older, women become more interesting and enjoyable to interact with to me, as well. I never really thought about it like that!
I agree with you. But curious, how have the men got so much worse in your opinion?
I hear similar comments from so many women, although never from alpha women. And I think one of the key drivers in many young women’s desperate need to find a mate is to establish some solid foundation, some haven from the constant middle school-y power games, tests and manipulations they must endure within their close female friend group. Exhausting. Honest question: is it really a coincidence that our society is being riven so dramatically at precisely the time that women have asserted a more dominant - perhaps the dominant - voice in our culture and society?
I would have fucking loved that blog when I was 20ish.
NLOG vs “pick me”?
NLOG feels a bit like “I never loved you anyway” except applied to female friendship rather than romance.
“Pick me” seems to be a generic insult for a female using her positive traits to directly attract (or keep) a mate rather than affirm the currently “approved” female status game
I think that's a very accurate way to differentiate them!