On one hand, this is a very well-reasoned, nuanced, and empathetic piece on all sides, and it portrays a good view of the NLOG phenomenon for outsiders (i.e. boys, men, males, and people like me) who had little to no view of that culture, so I thank you for writing it.
On the other, as a former emotionally stunted and bullied boy* with few positive role models (of any gender), I have to admit something uncomplimentary about myself: if it weren't for NLOGs, I probably would have had zero female friends growing up. I'm not sure what effects this would have had on my ability to sympathize with female perspectives, but I'm sure it wouldn't have been good. That evergreen feminist canard to "just see women as people/human beings" sprung to mind while I read this piece, because I am fairly certain NLOGs (the same ones I'm sure many self-identified feminists would have loathed) actually did more to help me see women as people and human beings than all the tumblr posts talking about schrodinger's sex offenders and how misandry is actually an act of self-care as long as it's funny.**
*the word "former" is debatable here, if you ask my therapist
**to be fair, and I say this unironically, some of the man-hating jokes on there were pretty clever. Gotta respect game.
-----
"...I suppose I was asking for it by naming it “The Nice Feminist” with a tagline that stated “where the author isn’t a jerk...”
"...I very naively believed I could somehow explain feminism to both the general public and to these MRA men in a way that other feminists I saw didn’t or wouldn’t: politely and, maybe most importantly, with men’s gender-based concerns in mind, as well. And then, upon hearing my most reasonable takes and sincere empathy, they’d call a truce and accept feminism as valid. (Spoiler: this did not happen.)"
While this might be slightly tongue-in-cheek, I'm old enough to remember that old tumblr blog whatabouttehmenz, and being pleasantly surprised that there were actual websites on tumblr that approached masculinity with something resembling compassion***.
(***I originally had an even more snarky comment here, but I felt it was unproductive and unfair and deleted it. I'm replacing it with just a wistful observation that the people who were most likely to say men were stunted toxic babies who should be more compassionate, were also the most likely to overlap with the people saying men don't have real problems and should shut up and take a seat. Let's just say the people telling me to bottle up my feelings and suck it up weren't always cishet boomer republican white men.)
I understand that dealing with angry men's rights activists on the internet was (and is) not pleasant, and I don't have any wish to defend their behavior. However, if it is any consolation, from my own personal experience, I believe it is likely your compassion had a very positive effect on many of the men who did read your content, even if they may not have been in the best personal place to express it, or if they were drowned out by the loud voices of those who felt otherwise.
I'm very late but this one spoke to me a lot, and very well written as usual. There's so much writing here that's of low quality that seems to exist for the sake of content generation, and everything you write is so thoughtful.
1. I definitely was a NLOG, and I see that there is a distinction between that behavior and an honest assessment of the shortcomings among both men and women in terms of anti-social behavior. It is a plain fact for many of us that we're stifled in women's spaces and less stifled in male spaces. I think the comfort we feel, however, in male spaces also leads other women to be suspicious.
2. I 100% had an unhealthy relationship with the male gaze during this period - my self worth, I must admit, did tie into male attention, without realizing. I did a lot of self work and this became evident as a result. I actually was unfaithful in my relationship and that was a radical break for me. After the regret stemming from that event, I never sought male attention again, and it now has nothing to do with my self worth. However, I still find men far easier to get along with socially, and to be more fun overall. Maybe it's because I have some stereotypically male inclinations in my personality, but I still find my preference for male company to be strong.
3. I have a LOT more women friends these days like you and all my male friends are largely married, making the friendship either strained or non-existent. This is, of course, because, when men get married, women friends are put at a distance because their partners are often jealous of female friends if they're attractive. I've seen this so often, and it sucks to lose friends.
4. I think that despite having been NLOGs, I don't know if I would accept the accusation of internalized misogyny. E.g., my earliest identity was that of feminist. Before puberty even I knew that women were treated unfairly because I saw it in my own family and culture. That is the opposite of misogyny. I remained this way until college, even though I had experienced nothing but rejection from girls throughout until college, even from girls I thought were my friends. In college, I made female friends. But I also noticed that no matter the friend group, if all women, I was almost always the butt of a joke - I was the one they made fun of, and this was pretty hurtful at the time because it was about the ways in which I didn't fit in. That kept a low level of distrust bubbling within me that then became molten lava as I experienced all sorts of humiliation and job loss and reputational destruction because a woman didn't like me. Women have helped my career, but of those who have hurt it, women are the majority. Is this not justified distrust of women as a class? Maybe not, but if one starts out trusting and repeatedly has that trust broken, would a person not be distrustful of those people as a class? I don't think this observation is internalized misogyny but I have constantly been accused of it. The word misogyny has little meaning to me.
5. "...and the fact that so many feminist-identified women balk at the notion of female bullying and mistreatment of one another being uttered aloud really only proves the point."
This right here proves that there's no sisterhood; there's only the inclination of bullying accompanied by a stricture on talking about it. That is self-serving bs, as we both know. And this vicious cycle about observing shitty female behavior and calling is a death spiral for me - I have fully gone in the direction of operating from a place of distrust unless it's someone like you - curious women.
6. I, too, find incurious people tiring. I noticed though that intellectual conversation about abstract topics is absent in women's spaces. I find this sort of conversation easier and more common in male company, not least because men tend to be more interested in these topics and because women's groups seem to default to discussing celebs, entertainment, other people, and events, and I just find it excruciating to be in these conversations. Many women would call this statement internalized misogyny, but my eyes and ears show me that the concerns of college educated women are largely shallow and self-centered. I can't help but conclude this from the myriad experiences I've had in women-only spaces. I run away from them now.
Finally, the pick me girl: I find this, too, to be a problematic moniker. It refuses to recognize that maybe the pick me girl is just making the point that women treat her badly. Why would a woman dubbed a pick me for having deviant opinions or behavior not feel shitty for being called this? I've been called a pick me girl not because I'm going after some guy but because of my deviating opinions about the shitty ways in which women behave. The point isn't to be picked, it's to speak a plain fact that women actively suppress through the enforcement of groupthink and authoritarian tendencies in our spaces. There is always a hierarchy, always a queen bee, and always a butt of the joke.
Oh yikes, I had never heard of the NLOG concept until this post but now I realize I totally was one. And also now that I’m out as non-binary, is that just the ultimate NLOG statement?? So much to think about. Thank you!!
You express you grievances with a dynamic that is ever present, but rarely discussed I open for what it is (and when it is, people take it to an autistic level).
Essentially, men and women are programmed differently to succeed in reproduction. Whether we want to admit it or not all human behavior is derived from the necessity to either reproduce or survive.
With that said, men compete (outside of general physical attractivemess) through skill and resources acquisition. It is why sports, doing "epic shit", ranking of skill, etc. are all inherent behaviors in men.
Conversely, women compete by tearing down the competition which manifests in the aforementioned behaviors that lead you to being a NLOG.
I have two daughters and I can sympathize. It is what it is and I can only discourage that behavior in my daughters and make them aware of it to help them in navigating intrasexual competition amongst other girls.
Also, yeah. You found put the hard way that men tend to befriend women they want to sleep with. I will tell you, married men are no exception, so be cautious.
Glad to hear you are coming into your own. I write what I'm sure would be "sexist" material aimed at men to make their lives better. But with that said, I am open to hearing the experiences of women and providing my two cents.
I understand the rift that seems to be growing between men and women, but I truly think if we took the time to understand our differences and except them (as infuriating as they can be at times) we form better relationships where both men and women will benefit.
I was an archetypal NLOG *despite* being fairly low on the hotness. I did have choice female friends, but I heavily divested from "young femininity". In hindsight, it was 80% at least driven by my being "sexually weird", which only many years later I realised meant being dominant (and toppy). But the arc this post describes still roughly fits.
The most striking thing I have observed is that as I got older (I'm definitely at the "it's all downhill from here or will be very soon" stage now), the women got SO MUCH BETTER, and the men got SO MUCH WORSE -- and I'm not even sure if its just relative effect caused by women's "improving with age" described in this post. This is an entirely real life observation and doesn't apply to media and public people, among those I still see a disparity of reason, emotional processing and appeals to sympathy that I saw in my late teens / early 20s in favour of men. But in my actual meatspace existence women my age come across as more interesting and more enjoyable to interact with and more emotionally together than men. I've not unpacked that (could be entirely circumstantial) but it's definitely a thing in my life.
(edited for various typos and formatting.)
--
On one hand, this is a very well-reasoned, nuanced, and empathetic piece on all sides, and it portrays a good view of the NLOG phenomenon for outsiders (i.e. boys, men, males, and people like me) who had little to no view of that culture, so I thank you for writing it.
On the other, as a former emotionally stunted and bullied boy* with few positive role models (of any gender), I have to admit something uncomplimentary about myself: if it weren't for NLOGs, I probably would have had zero female friends growing up. I'm not sure what effects this would have had on my ability to sympathize with female perspectives, but I'm sure it wouldn't have been good. That evergreen feminist canard to "just see women as people/human beings" sprung to mind while I read this piece, because I am fairly certain NLOGs (the same ones I'm sure many self-identified feminists would have loathed) actually did more to help me see women as people and human beings than all the tumblr posts talking about schrodinger's sex offenders and how misandry is actually an act of self-care as long as it's funny.**
*the word "former" is debatable here, if you ask my therapist
**to be fair, and I say this unironically, some of the man-hating jokes on there were pretty clever. Gotta respect game.
-----
"...I suppose I was asking for it by naming it “The Nice Feminist” with a tagline that stated “where the author isn’t a jerk...”
"...I very naively believed I could somehow explain feminism to both the general public and to these MRA men in a way that other feminists I saw didn’t or wouldn’t: politely and, maybe most importantly, with men’s gender-based concerns in mind, as well. And then, upon hearing my most reasonable takes and sincere empathy, they’d call a truce and accept feminism as valid. (Spoiler: this did not happen.)"
While this might be slightly tongue-in-cheek, I'm old enough to remember that old tumblr blog whatabouttehmenz, and being pleasantly surprised that there were actual websites on tumblr that approached masculinity with something resembling compassion***.
(***I originally had an even more snarky comment here, but I felt it was unproductive and unfair and deleted it. I'm replacing it with just a wistful observation that the people who were most likely to say men were stunted toxic babies who should be more compassionate, were also the most likely to overlap with the people saying men don't have real problems and should shut up and take a seat. Let's just say the people telling me to bottle up my feelings and suck it up weren't always cishet boomer republican white men.)
I understand that dealing with angry men's rights activists on the internet was (and is) not pleasant, and I don't have any wish to defend their behavior. However, if it is any consolation, from my own personal experience, I believe it is likely your compassion had a very positive effect on many of the men who did read your content, even if they may not have been in the best personal place to express it, or if they were drowned out by the loud voices of those who felt otherwise.
I'm very late but this one spoke to me a lot, and very well written as usual. There's so much writing here that's of low quality that seems to exist for the sake of content generation, and everything you write is so thoughtful.
1. I definitely was a NLOG, and I see that there is a distinction between that behavior and an honest assessment of the shortcomings among both men and women in terms of anti-social behavior. It is a plain fact for many of us that we're stifled in women's spaces and less stifled in male spaces. I think the comfort we feel, however, in male spaces also leads other women to be suspicious.
2. I 100% had an unhealthy relationship with the male gaze during this period - my self worth, I must admit, did tie into male attention, without realizing. I did a lot of self work and this became evident as a result. I actually was unfaithful in my relationship and that was a radical break for me. After the regret stemming from that event, I never sought male attention again, and it now has nothing to do with my self worth. However, I still find men far easier to get along with socially, and to be more fun overall. Maybe it's because I have some stereotypically male inclinations in my personality, but I still find my preference for male company to be strong.
3. I have a LOT more women friends these days like you and all my male friends are largely married, making the friendship either strained or non-existent. This is, of course, because, when men get married, women friends are put at a distance because their partners are often jealous of female friends if they're attractive. I've seen this so often, and it sucks to lose friends.
4. I think that despite having been NLOGs, I don't know if I would accept the accusation of internalized misogyny. E.g., my earliest identity was that of feminist. Before puberty even I knew that women were treated unfairly because I saw it in my own family and culture. That is the opposite of misogyny. I remained this way until college, even though I had experienced nothing but rejection from girls throughout until college, even from girls I thought were my friends. In college, I made female friends. But I also noticed that no matter the friend group, if all women, I was almost always the butt of a joke - I was the one they made fun of, and this was pretty hurtful at the time because it was about the ways in which I didn't fit in. That kept a low level of distrust bubbling within me that then became molten lava as I experienced all sorts of humiliation and job loss and reputational destruction because a woman didn't like me. Women have helped my career, but of those who have hurt it, women are the majority. Is this not justified distrust of women as a class? Maybe not, but if one starts out trusting and repeatedly has that trust broken, would a person not be distrustful of those people as a class? I don't think this observation is internalized misogyny but I have constantly been accused of it. The word misogyny has little meaning to me.
5. "...and the fact that so many feminist-identified women balk at the notion of female bullying and mistreatment of one another being uttered aloud really only proves the point."
This right here proves that there's no sisterhood; there's only the inclination of bullying accompanied by a stricture on talking about it. That is self-serving bs, as we both know. And this vicious cycle about observing shitty female behavior and calling is a death spiral for me - I have fully gone in the direction of operating from a place of distrust unless it's someone like you - curious women.
6. I, too, find incurious people tiring. I noticed though that intellectual conversation about abstract topics is absent in women's spaces. I find this sort of conversation easier and more common in male company, not least because men tend to be more interested in these topics and because women's groups seem to default to discussing celebs, entertainment, other people, and events, and I just find it excruciating to be in these conversations. Many women would call this statement internalized misogyny, but my eyes and ears show me that the concerns of college educated women are largely shallow and self-centered. I can't help but conclude this from the myriad experiences I've had in women-only spaces. I run away from them now.
Finally, the pick me girl: I find this, too, to be a problematic moniker. It refuses to recognize that maybe the pick me girl is just making the point that women treat her badly. Why would a woman dubbed a pick me for having deviant opinions or behavior not feel shitty for being called this? I've been called a pick me girl not because I'm going after some guy but because of my deviating opinions about the shitty ways in which women behave. The point isn't to be picked, it's to speak a plain fact that women actively suppress through the enforcement of groupthink and authoritarian tendencies in our spaces. There is always a hierarchy, always a queen bee, and always a butt of the joke.
Oh yikes, I had never heard of the NLOG concept until this post but now I realize I totally was one. And also now that I’m out as non-binary, is that just the ultimate NLOG statement?? So much to think about. Thank you!!
You express you grievances with a dynamic that is ever present, but rarely discussed I open for what it is (and when it is, people take it to an autistic level).
Essentially, men and women are programmed differently to succeed in reproduction. Whether we want to admit it or not all human behavior is derived from the necessity to either reproduce or survive.
With that said, men compete (outside of general physical attractivemess) through skill and resources acquisition. It is why sports, doing "epic shit", ranking of skill, etc. are all inherent behaviors in men.
Conversely, women compete by tearing down the competition which manifests in the aforementioned behaviors that lead you to being a NLOG.
I have two daughters and I can sympathize. It is what it is and I can only discourage that behavior in my daughters and make them aware of it to help them in navigating intrasexual competition amongst other girls.
Also, yeah. You found put the hard way that men tend to befriend women they want to sleep with. I will tell you, married men are no exception, so be cautious.
Glad to hear you are coming into your own. I write what I'm sure would be "sexist" material aimed at men to make their lives better. But with that said, I am open to hearing the experiences of women and providing my two cents.
I understand the rift that seems to be growing between men and women, but I truly think if we took the time to understand our differences and except them (as infuriating as they can be at times) we form better relationships where both men and women will benefit.
I was an archetypal NLOG *despite* being fairly low on the hotness. I did have choice female friends, but I heavily divested from "young femininity". In hindsight, it was 80% at least driven by my being "sexually weird", which only many years later I realised meant being dominant (and toppy). But the arc this post describes still roughly fits.
The most striking thing I have observed is that as I got older (I'm definitely at the "it's all downhill from here or will be very soon" stage now), the women got SO MUCH BETTER, and the men got SO MUCH WORSE -- and I'm not even sure if its just relative effect caused by women's "improving with age" described in this post. This is an entirely real life observation and doesn't apply to media and public people, among those I still see a disparity of reason, emotional processing and appeals to sympathy that I saw in my late teens / early 20s in favour of men. But in my actual meatspace existence women my age come across as more interesting and more enjoyable to interact with and more emotionally together than men. I've not unpacked that (could be entirely circumstantial) but it's definitely a thing in my life.