I think the attractiveness debate assumes tastes are constant over time, whereas I think they evolve as we age. People have different priorities in their twenties, as opposed to their forties, and body types also change somewhat.
There is a correct answer to this physiologically, i.e. one will be better for health than the other. I don't think "attractive" is the right framework.
Physique is one factor and certainly a significant one, but I think the guy on the right gesturing like a total douche bag takes his attractiveness down a notch. Just my $0.02.
A lot of people say that and I'm sure it's true for a lot of them, but it didn't really occur to me because I read the pose on the right as more goofy and having fun, not really douchey. Maybe his friendly appearance in the one on the left influenced that.
In conclusion, the worst combination is to be skinnyfat and to _want_ to lose weight, to live healthily and to get fit, I mean, fitter, I mean, to do something with your muscles other than just spiritlessly watching them waste away. You get to have a weak, revolting body, while still reminding anyone who, for some bizarre reason, would consider approaching you that you want nothing to do with sugar, alcohol or burned things.
Women don't like men who are obviously preoccupied with their appearance. Bodybuilders showing off muscles that don't actually do anything, as opposed to athletes or dancers whose muscles are developed purely in service of excellence in their sport or art. As my old dance teacher used to say, "Fit for what?" You don't need six pack abs to be healthy.
But there's a difference in being muscular specifically for its own sake, and being muscular in the course of doing something that demands strength. Not just a philosophical difference; they actually look different.
It is kind of strange. Men are the ones who go to bodybuilding competitions to look at other men. I don't know. I never got into that. I went to one and wondered why I was paying money to look at men. That was the last time I did that. I'll happily watch two dudes beat the hell out of each other in a ring but just looking at them posing? No thanks. Good post.
> They both make the points that normie women (those who don’t also “live at the gym”) might feel intimidated by a noticeably more fit man, and that (most importantly, imho): gym people like other gym people. People tend to attract and be attracted to people who are similar to them, and fitness is no exception to this tendency.
The significance of this point can hardly be overstated. Personally I know I've always found it annoying that I can't filter discussions of what women find appealing, physically or behaviorally, by whether they are themselves appealing to me, because for making decisions about my lifestyle that information is signal and the rest is noise. When you get gymcel types or former fat guys staying "stop lying" they're responding to the lack of interest they're getting in real life but often forgetting that the internet is also available to that majority of women they don't want to date, particularly fat women or those on a trajectory towards being fat who likely have the same desire as most other women to be the more physically attractive one in their relationships. I kind of understand that, not because I want to be hotter than my girlfriend, but because it seems like a crime against nature to be having sex with a hottie if I look like Ralphie May. It's not so much intimidating as a constant reminder of what you don't like about yourself which is not an attractive thought.
I want to see a comparison of straight women vs. gay men in that regard. As a gay dude I strongly prefer the "cardio body", skinny but lithe and athletic, a guy who looks like he'd be the scout of the mammoth hunting party.
Since comment threads don't allow edits, I'll also add that I find huge shredded bodybuilder physiques repulsive, the only thing worse is obesity. (Towering height, on the other hand, is a trait I like)
It's only allowed in Note comment threads and on desktop for actual post threads. If he's on a phone and in the comment section of the post itself, there's no edit option in the 3 dot menu.
The one objection I was going to have is that straight men seem to have this preference rather than men who actually want to bone men, but then I remembered what it’s like for the gays and uhhh nope that’s not it
I guess I just have to accept that some people have bad taste 😮💨
Great post as always! Do I have to work today? Can I just hang out here and wax philosophical with you about hotties all day?
I'm 5'3" and have a slender build. Since I've never had the option of leaning into size, I think the look on the right is my best look. I've had it before, and I got more attention from women at the time. Of course that could have had something to do with my own mojo; I did feel super hot. Nowadays I'm cardio fit but don't do a lot of muscle work and I feel like I'm pretty much at my baseline level of attention from women. However, I'm also kind of struggling and not happy in my life atm, so that's probably messing with my mojo as well. Also, I have a hard time ever leaving the house, so that's not helping either.
Another detail, and I'm not sure what to make of this off the top of my head, is that I intentionally wear tight shirts. I feel like the guy on the right looks better in his everyday life if he wears a men's medium, because he doesn't just look reasonably healthy, which is fine but unremarkable; he looks straight up cut, which is noticeable and probably attractive to at least some people. But maybe I'm wrong; maybe doing that would send out the gymbro vibe that so many women apparently find unattractive. Idk what to make of the fact that I do it all the time. I'm inclined to think it makes sense for me, that it's the best strategy for my unique body type. Again, this could be more about the fact that I really like fitness, and feel accomplished and self-actualized when I'm ripped like that, so it has knock-on positive effects for my mojo.
Ok, it turns out I do in fact have to work now. Thanks for helping me start my day out with some fun!
Yes, I completely understand what you're saying and I can relate. Tighter shirts almost always look more flattering on guys, especially if you're slender with muscles. I wish more guys would understand that! Even bigger guys who say they "feel like a stuffed sausage" in a tighter shirt almost always look better than they think in them because it accentuates the more muscular parts of their build. Of course there is a line there where one can be too big for tight shirts, but I think bigger guys seem to think that line is way skinnier than it is!
I have a really similar body type. I'm short and very thin and I resemble a rectangle much more than an hourglass, and when I do gain weight it's just like adding a hip bag to a stick and it looks terrible, so my go-to to make my body type look best is also to lift so I have definition. Plus certain exercises eventually give the illusion of hips, lol. We all do what we can with these meat suits we were given!
This is spot on. My husband was the thinnest, youngest guy I’d ever dated and I did usually choose thicker, older men. Now he bemoans gaining weight as he ages and doesn’t believe me when I say I’m more attracted to him with extra muscle and fat— not to mention how his hair is coming in salt and pepper just like I prefer. He thinks I’m just being nice but I really do mean it. Tall man now strong and wise. Will protect and provide.
It’s understandable though. You chose him when he was thin and are now telling him you prefer thick, which to a man is either you’re lying now or were then. (It sounds like your preference hasn’t changed much).
Lying doesn't need to be a part of it in that kind of situation. "Types" aren't set in stone and plenty of things can surprise you in people, including yourself. You can be very attracted to someone who isn't your usual type and it doesn't mean you were wrong or lying to yourself all the times before when you were attracted to different features and physiques.
I understand. I’m saying from the perspective of the other person the disconnect is understandable and why a conversation needs to be had. I’m trying to picture how’d I’d feel if my wife one day said “it’s great you put on weight as I’ve always thought you were not my physical type”. I’d have questions 😭
What if you thought you were repulsive to your spouse? What would make you feel better? Would it be for the person you love to say. “You need to go on a diet and start running more often so that you’ll look like you did 15yrs ago when you were 24.” Because if that’s your suggestion then nothing you’ve written is of any value.
I’m not lying, I simply loved him more than I valued big muscles. I chose him despite the fact that he was thin because it wasn't a turn-off, just not a selling point (like me being 15lbs overweight was not a selling point to him).
The reason I TELL him that is because he calls himself all kinds of terrible names and talks shit about how fat he is (he is NOT fat) and says often that he "looks like chewed bubble gum." If you have suggestions on more helpful things to say than "You're healthy and I'm actually more attracted to you now than ever before," please let me know.
Also why would you twist my love into an accusation of lying? Do you not understand that human connection means more than physical idealism and people choose partners for other reasons than their physical attributes? We do. Hopefully you will someday, too.
I didn’t say you were lying or twist your love into lying. I didn’t even speak of love. I was explaining how it comes across to the mind of a man.
We’re logical thinkers and to us if your taste hasn’t changed but my shape has and you’re telling me that now you like my shape, it follows that you didn’t like my shape back then. That’s how it plays to us. That’s what i was highlighting.
As you said, love is about many things and the physical aspect is just one. That doesn’t change that we (both men and women) want to be desired for our physical shape also. Which is why these disconnects come up in the first place.
A lot of the difference comes down to what men and women think of doing when they think of the opposite sex. Men think of only one thing (and it's disgusting). Women, on the other hand, also think about other things like:
- Eating a meal together: Do our diets seem compatible?
- Cuddling: Is there enough fluff to make it comfortable?
- Exercise/lifestyle: Will he be up for trying lots of fun activities together or does he just live in the gym?
A lot of this is true but I'd make an exception for hobbies. A lot of men, especially younger men, cling to the hope of a woman that will share their hobbies. Gamer girls, etc.
This isn't enough to make a guy pick a girl that he thinks is too ugly for him (most of the time) but "She'll play video games with me" definitely sways a lot of decisions on the margin, to the ruin of many a man.
The reason why is that (making broad generalizations that are nonetheless true 100% of the time in my life experience) women are never as into hobbies (or at least predominantly male hobbies) as men are. Even when they really, really seem to be, they're not. Or it quickly fades.
You will never have a female hobby-sharing friend like your male hobby-sharing friends. This aspect of her personality will always disappoint, relative to initial hopes.
Which is fine if that common interest was just a bonus to get things started. But if it sways a decision (as I indicated in my original comment), then it will end up being the wrong decision because you overweighted a characteristic that will inevitably disappoint you.
Ok thanks, that explanation makes sense. There is one exception, and that's where the woman is autistic. In that case she may well have genuine interest in hobbies which are atypical for a woman.
I could believe that. Come to think of it ~15 years ago I knew an extremely male-brained lesbian who would run sessions of Pathfinder Society and had a hard mastery of the rules. She may have been mildly autistic in retrospect (often correlated with lesbian behavior).
Otherwise in my younger days, while I saw a decent number of girls around TTRPG tables, some of them even cute, at least 80% were of the sort that had to be instructed how the rules worked every single time they took an action even if they were in the group for 2 years, while the remaining 20% eventually picked up on the basics of the rules but still never read a rulebook in their spare time and had no chance of being able to run the game.
Being skinny for my entire adult life, I know women prefer a bigger guy. This is a side effect of patriarchy that forces men to overdo it by building muscles that women don’t even like. Now that I’m putting on pounds finally in middle age, I’m happy with it. I’m married, but getting more noticed is an ego boost for anyone. Thanks for this article.
I think the attractiveness debate assumes tastes are constant over time, whereas I think they evolve as we age. People have different priorities in their twenties, as opposed to their forties, and body types also change somewhat.
I completely agree about tastes evolving as we age.
There is a correct answer to this physiologically, i.e. one will be better for health than the other. I don't think "attractive" is the right framework.
Physique is one factor and certainly a significant one, but I think the guy on the right gesturing like a total douche bag takes his attractiveness down a notch. Just my $0.02.
A lot of people say that and I'm sure it's true for a lot of them, but it didn't really occur to me because I read the pose on the right as more goofy and having fun, not really douchey. Maybe his friendly appearance in the one on the left influenced that.
In conclusion, the worst combination is to be skinnyfat and to _want_ to lose weight, to live healthily and to get fit, I mean, fitter, I mean, to do something with your muscles other than just spiritlessly watching them waste away. You get to have a weak, revolting body, while still reminding anyone who, for some bizarre reason, would consider approaching you that you want nothing to do with sugar, alcohol or burned things.
Women don't like men who are obviously preoccupied with their appearance. Bodybuilders showing off muscles that don't actually do anything, as opposed to athletes or dancers whose muscles are developed purely in service of excellence in their sport or art. As my old dance teacher used to say, "Fit for what?" You don't need six pack abs to be healthy.
Bodybuilding is a sport/art that’s very competitive.
But there's a difference in being muscular specifically for its own sake, and being muscular in the course of doing something that demands strength. Not just a philosophical difference; they actually look different.
It is kind of strange. Men are the ones who go to bodybuilding competitions to look at other men. I don't know. I never got into that. I went to one and wondered why I was paying money to look at men. That was the last time I did that. I'll happily watch two dudes beat the hell out of each other in a ring but just looking at them posing? No thanks. Good post.
> They both make the points that normie women (those who don’t also “live at the gym”) might feel intimidated by a noticeably more fit man, and that (most importantly, imho): gym people like other gym people. People tend to attract and be attracted to people who are similar to them, and fitness is no exception to this tendency.
The significance of this point can hardly be overstated. Personally I know I've always found it annoying that I can't filter discussions of what women find appealing, physically or behaviorally, by whether they are themselves appealing to me, because for making decisions about my lifestyle that information is signal and the rest is noise. When you get gymcel types or former fat guys staying "stop lying" they're responding to the lack of interest they're getting in real life but often forgetting that the internet is also available to that majority of women they don't want to date, particularly fat women or those on a trajectory towards being fat who likely have the same desire as most other women to be the more physically attractive one in their relationships. I kind of understand that, not because I want to be hotter than my girlfriend, but because it seems like a crime against nature to be having sex with a hottie if I look like Ralphie May. It's not so much intimidating as a constant reminder of what you don't like about yourself which is not an attractive thought.
I want to see a comparison of straight women vs. gay men in that regard. As a gay dude I strongly prefer the "cardio body", skinny but lithe and athletic, a guy who looks like he'd be the scout of the mammoth hunting party.
Since comment threads don't allow edits, I'll also add that I find huge shredded bodybuilder physiques repulsive, the only thing worse is obesity. (Towering height, on the other hand, is a trait I like)
I commented below. I get a lot more attention from men at the gay bar (I'm bi) than I do from women in general. I think you might be onto something.
Comment threads allow edits.
Hit the three-dots button.
It's only allowed in Note comment threads and on desktop for actual post threads. If he's on a phone and in the comment section of the post itself, there's no edit option in the 3 dot menu.
Isn't this the comment section of the post itself? That's how I got here, on my phone.
ANOTHER EDIT: Ah, maybe this is because I'm using a browser shortcut to Substack, not the app. maybe this is also why I don't have the "reels."
Oh, that makes sense. I was wondering if the same thing applied in the mobile browser as desktop, which I guess it does!
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills because I am on the app, I see three dots. EDIT and I just edited this comment.
scout of the mammoth hunting party? You must have thought about this scenario a lot.
No I made it up in the time it took to type it.
All this depends on whether you are ovulating.
Lol. I'll let you know if my opinion has changed in a week or so.
The one objection I was going to have is that straight men seem to have this preference rather than men who actually want to bone men, but then I remembered what it’s like for the gays and uhhh nope that’s not it
I guess I just have to accept that some people have bad taste 😮💨
Great post as always! Do I have to work today? Can I just hang out here and wax philosophical with you about hotties all day?
I'm 5'3" and have a slender build. Since I've never had the option of leaning into size, I think the look on the right is my best look. I've had it before, and I got more attention from women at the time. Of course that could have had something to do with my own mojo; I did feel super hot. Nowadays I'm cardio fit but don't do a lot of muscle work and I feel like I'm pretty much at my baseline level of attention from women. However, I'm also kind of struggling and not happy in my life atm, so that's probably messing with my mojo as well. Also, I have a hard time ever leaving the house, so that's not helping either.
Another detail, and I'm not sure what to make of this off the top of my head, is that I intentionally wear tight shirts. I feel like the guy on the right looks better in his everyday life if he wears a men's medium, because he doesn't just look reasonably healthy, which is fine but unremarkable; he looks straight up cut, which is noticeable and probably attractive to at least some people. But maybe I'm wrong; maybe doing that would send out the gymbro vibe that so many women apparently find unattractive. Idk what to make of the fact that I do it all the time. I'm inclined to think it makes sense for me, that it's the best strategy for my unique body type. Again, this could be more about the fact that I really like fitness, and feel accomplished and self-actualized when I'm ripped like that, so it has knock-on positive effects for my mojo.
Ok, it turns out I do in fact have to work now. Thanks for helping me start my day out with some fun!
Yes, I completely understand what you're saying and I can relate. Tighter shirts almost always look more flattering on guys, especially if you're slender with muscles. I wish more guys would understand that! Even bigger guys who say they "feel like a stuffed sausage" in a tighter shirt almost always look better than they think in them because it accentuates the more muscular parts of their build. Of course there is a line there where one can be too big for tight shirts, but I think bigger guys seem to think that line is way skinnier than it is!
I have a really similar body type. I'm short and very thin and I resemble a rectangle much more than an hourglass, and when I do gain weight it's just like adding a hip bag to a stick and it looks terrible, so my go-to to make my body type look best is also to lift so I have definition. Plus certain exercises eventually give the illusion of hips, lol. We all do what we can with these meat suits we were given!
This is spot on. My husband was the thinnest, youngest guy I’d ever dated and I did usually choose thicker, older men. Now he bemoans gaining weight as he ages and doesn’t believe me when I say I’m more attracted to him with extra muscle and fat— not to mention how his hair is coming in salt and pepper just like I prefer. He thinks I’m just being nice but I really do mean it. Tall man now strong and wise. Will protect and provide.
It’s understandable though. You chose him when he was thin and are now telling him you prefer thick, which to a man is either you’re lying now or were then. (It sounds like your preference hasn’t changed much).
Lying doesn't need to be a part of it in that kind of situation. "Types" aren't set in stone and plenty of things can surprise you in people, including yourself. You can be very attracted to someone who isn't your usual type and it doesn't mean you were wrong or lying to yourself all the times before when you were attracted to different features and physiques.
I understand. I’m saying from the perspective of the other person the disconnect is understandable and why a conversation needs to be had. I’m trying to picture how’d I’d feel if my wife one day said “it’s great you put on weight as I’ve always thought you were not my physical type”. I’d have questions 😭
What if you thought you were repulsive to your spouse? What would make you feel better? Would it be for the person you love to say. “You need to go on a diet and start running more often so that you’ll look like you did 15yrs ago when you were 24.” Because if that’s your suggestion then nothing you’ve written is of any value.
* edited after reading your other comments
I’m not lying, I simply loved him more than I valued big muscles. I chose him despite the fact that he was thin because it wasn't a turn-off, just not a selling point (like me being 15lbs overweight was not a selling point to him).
The reason I TELL him that is because he calls himself all kinds of terrible names and talks shit about how fat he is (he is NOT fat) and says often that he "looks like chewed bubble gum." If you have suggestions on more helpful things to say than "You're healthy and I'm actually more attracted to you now than ever before," please let me know.
Also why would you twist my love into an accusation of lying? Do you not understand that human connection means more than physical idealism and people choose partners for other reasons than their physical attributes? We do. Hopefully you will someday, too.
I didn’t say you were lying or twist your love into lying. I didn’t even speak of love. I was explaining how it comes across to the mind of a man.
We’re logical thinkers and to us if your taste hasn’t changed but my shape has and you’re telling me that now you like my shape, it follows that you didn’t like my shape back then. That’s how it plays to us. That’s what i was highlighting.
As you said, love is about many things and the physical aspect is just one. That doesn’t change that we (both men and women) want to be desired for our physical shape also. Which is why these disconnects come up in the first place.
fwiw teaching yoga and being on the path to certified personal trainer deffo makes you a fitness professional in my eyes
I appreciate that! 🙏
A lot of the difference comes down to what men and women think of doing when they think of the opposite sex. Men think of only one thing (and it's disgusting). Women, on the other hand, also think about other things like:
- Eating a meal together: Do our diets seem compatible?
- Cuddling: Is there enough fluff to make it comfortable?
- Exercise/lifestyle: Will he be up for trying lots of fun activities together or does he just live in the gym?
But what do any of those have to do with answering “which one *looks* better?”
A lot of this is true but I'd make an exception for hobbies. A lot of men, especially younger men, cling to the hope of a woman that will share their hobbies. Gamer girls, etc.
This isn't enough to make a guy pick a girl that he thinks is too ugly for him (most of the time) but "She'll play video games with me" definitely sways a lot of decisions on the margin, to the ruin of many a man.
Why would that be "to the ruin" of such a man? If he ends up happy with a partner who he shares interests with, why is that such a terrible thing?
It's not terrible in theory, only in practice.
The reason why is that (making broad generalizations that are nonetheless true 100% of the time in my life experience) women are never as into hobbies (or at least predominantly male hobbies) as men are. Even when they really, really seem to be, they're not. Or it quickly fades.
You will never have a female hobby-sharing friend like your male hobby-sharing friends. This aspect of her personality will always disappoint, relative to initial hopes.
Which is fine if that common interest was just a bonus to get things started. But if it sways a decision (as I indicated in my original comment), then it will end up being the wrong decision because you overweighted a characteristic that will inevitably disappoint you.
Ok thanks, that explanation makes sense. There is one exception, and that's where the woman is autistic. In that case she may well have genuine interest in hobbies which are atypical for a woman.
I could believe that. Come to think of it ~15 years ago I knew an extremely male-brained lesbian who would run sessions of Pathfinder Society and had a hard mastery of the rules. She may have been mildly autistic in retrospect (often correlated with lesbian behavior).
Otherwise in my younger days, while I saw a decent number of girls around TTRPG tables, some of them even cute, at least 80% were of the sort that had to be instructed how the rules worked every single time they took an action even if they were in the group for 2 years, while the remaining 20% eventually picked up on the basics of the rules but still never read a rulebook in their spare time and had no chance of being able to run the game.
Being skinny for my entire adult life, I know women prefer a bigger guy. This is a side effect of patriarchy that forces men to overdo it by building muscles that women don’t even like. Now that I’m putting on pounds finally in middle age, I’m happy with it. I’m married, but getting more noticed is an ego boost for anyone. Thanks for this article.
Takeaway: Most people are shallow.
“If I concede that a gym-shredded body is attractive, won’t I be held to that standard myself?”
For heterosexuals, at least, there's no contradiction in having different standards of attractiveness for men and women.