Oh man, the multi-level marketing! That really is women's inhumanity to women -- men do not do that shit to each other. The vitamin supplement variant is the worst.
ItWorks might be my least favorite one, strictly because the one woman I knew who bought into that stuff for *years* was so bloody annoying about it that it ruined me on that shit for life. Not that any of it actually works, lol.
My in-laws get into this stuff once in a while. It's relatively rare for men to do it to each other, but they were really into AmWay for a while and tried to sell it to everyone, male and female alike. Ugh, you'd think people would have caught on by now!
Sure but unless you are specifically talking to close personal friends of Joe and Alex this isn't a relevant observation. I have never met a man that tried to sell thier friends MLM shit. I'm sure those guys exist somewhere but they are vanishingly rare compared to women in that space.
Thanks for that. FWIW I’m an old, white male, so take the following as you see fit. Anyway, I grew up mostly in a small, middle-of-nowhere ranch town, the kind of place widely assumed to be a bastion of old-fashionedism. But, in general, people, both men and women, pulled their weight. Yes, conformity to gender stereotypes existed. But it didn’t dictate everything. I was exposed to many women who could hold their own doing difficult, physically taxing things. That’s what was required- all hands on deck at a branding, at the volunteer fire department, etc. Any accurate description of that milieu must include ‘egalitarian’. For overall mental health and a personal sense of freedom it beats all as a foundation. Yes, there are alternatives to being trapped by materialism and other people’s stupid social expectations.
It's interesting that she ends with "being unafraid / being unafraid." I think, to some extent, that women just feel fear & anxiety more than men, for chemical reasons. Sometimes fear is pointing out a legitimate threat, and it's useful. Sometimes it's not and you should ignore it. How can you tell the difference? That's really what being an adult is about. Sometimes you go with your emotions, sometimes you go against them. So it's hard. I think younger feminists have thrown up their hands, and basically are saying "anything that makes me afraid is evidence of a problem that needs to be solved so that I'm not afraid anymore." Well sometimes. And it may be that men are the biggest source of women's fears, but we're also kind of the solution.
I think a lot of it is rich people problems. People use money to remove all the constraints on themselves, but without constraints it's hard to make decisions, especially for women. The fewer constraints the more choices, and I've noticed that women tend to be more exhaustive, rational decision makers than men. An exhaustive decision-maker, faced with too many options, simply cannot come to a decision.
Excellent. You see somewhat of a mirror on the male side. Guys taking gear, starving themselves, obsessed with the gym. When most women I’ve asked prefer a guy with a little bit of cushion, and who see gym obsession as narcissistic. Obviously there’s more expectations on women, but I think the commonality is that both groups are taking the expectations of the culture and enforcing them on their own cohort, and both sides have difficulty actually LISTENING to the members of the sex they’re interested in, then resenting them for being obtuse. It frustrates me so much with guys. I’m like “just listen, bro”. They’re so full of rage at this “straw woman” they’ve built in their head. Damn maybe I should write a male companion piece to your article. lol.
I had no idea there were still women in real life who regarded “not wearing the same dress twice” as a real rule. The only woman I have ever actually heard voicing this was Veronica Lodge in an Archie comic that came out before I was born (and I’m old).
That screenshotted list of problems was nuts — aside from periods, obviously, which I concede are terrible on a level that nothing in male experience compares to. But the other stuff just seems *really* dated. Where exactly is male anger more socially acceptable these days? A female co-worker can yell at me all she wants, but I will be fired if I yell at her — maybe even arrested.
Same thing with whose aging is sexier. A 40yo woman is a “milf” now, and a 40yo man is “creepy.” It’s not 1962 anymore.
She really thinks men don’t feel fear? Most men’s lives *revolve* around fear, including mine. At least women can *admit* they feel fear without giving everyone “the ick.”
Oh, and I admit this is uncommon, but I do my household’s laundry 100% of the time. I don’t get why laundry isn’t seen as a male-coded chore: it involves carrying heavy baskets up and down stairs. I’m not going to make my wife do that.
P.S., suppose you *want* to coo at babies, but you can’t because you’ll be called a f*g.
There’s a paradox of wealth here - you trade up in stressors. You don’t have to worry about money but now you have to worry about what people with money think about you. That’s actually a pretty shitty trade if you’re already doing ok and not ready to play the mean rich girl game, which is absolutely savage in that women bully quite artfully with absolute plausible deniability at all times. That’s why she thinks that these aren’t choices she has made. She’s been convinced, by women (and gay men), surreptitiously, that these rules apply to her and that she will be viciously punished for not following them. Or maybe she was born into it and it’s a cage she’s lived in from the start.
Life has a way of handing you a much harder challenge when you level up. For women that often means the new challenge is a new level of mean girl to endure.
What jumps out at me is this woman's fear. Of what, exactly? Street crime, or wearing the same dress twice? She repeats "being unafraid" as if this is some sort of glorious male privilege. It's true that men are less afraid of becoming victims of crime (my husband once took me on a terrifying midnight stroll through Central Park in NYC, but that's another story). Men are afraid of a lot of things. They die earlier and are at a far higher risk of suicide. You correctly point out that her particular issues are mostly no one's fault but her own.
I could not disagree more with the appearance/make-up aspect. I just don't really get this idea that there is no burden on women to adhere to certain beauty standards -- and even if it is perpetuated by women, I don't think it's not worth talking about? Because how else can we tell fellow women that it's not okay without talking about it? Perhaps I have misunderstood feminism entirely, but a lot of that discourse I always saw as a way to tell/educate women that policing each other's looks is harmful--not blaming men for it.
Personally, I've only ever been dismissed for being ugly by men, had my opinions disregarded because of it (and that's not me projecting, that's what they said. Women who aren't attractive or making an effort to be do not warrant consideration to some men.) The complaints from men about how women on dating apps can get whatever they want is based on a very specific female archetype that doesn't account for the majority of women out there. Most of us are not super attractive and turning men away at every turn (OK, that may be my bitterness breaking through...) I can't even count the amount of men who have been disgusted with women's leg hair -- and yes, there are actually plenty of men who say they don't care (though I wonder how they would feel about the Mediterranean hirsute ladies) but that doesn't really change what the norm is.
WRT Pamela and famous women who "opt in" -- I think there is something to be said for public figures being used as a guide for how regular women appear/dress as well. It normalizes a certain appearance and style that isn't utilitarian or realistic, but the more you see it, the more you expect it. It's a bit like the instagram brain rot that has set expectations at a level that reality cannot possibly live up to--except perpetuated via mainstream media.
I was going to say that I could write an essay about this, but this did already get pretty long, so maybe I did.... Anyway, I hope it's not coming off as too combative, I just actually do not comprehend the idea that there is no pressure on women to at least try to live up to a certain beauty standard--whether that's enforced by men or not.
You're not coming off as combative at all. I know what you mean, and I don't disagree with you about beauty standards in general. I think where I personally get hung up on these arguments is on the specifics that people cite, like makeup, hair, nails, and body hair removal specifically, because they're usually paired with complaints about how much those things cost to maintain. I see a *lot* of complaints about the maintenance required to attract or keep a man center on things like spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars to get professionally waxed, fake nails, pro hair dye jobs and cuts, and expensive makeup, and I guess I have never seen any of things as necessary in any way, and have only heard from men that, half the time, they don't even notice specifics like this. It's not that I don't think it's expected of me or other women to look attractive in some capacity, but I don't think any of those specifics are what really contribute to attractiveness, and I don't think there's any reason at all for it to cost so much to have a nicely-groomed appearance, which I think is what we all expect of everyone to some degree, male and female alike. Spending $150 on nails doesn't seem to me like any kind of burden when one could be filing and buffing and painting their own, for example, and it would be much cheaper. Not that I think there's anything wrong with spending that money regularly, either, just that it's 100% an option, and there are other options available to achieve the same end result. Same with hair. I don't think anyone but very observant and paranoid wealthy men are going to notice the difference between a $35 salon trim and a $200 one, either.
I think you're right about what public figures doing trickling down to the rest of us in a way that normalizes changes, like how Pamela Anderson is going makeup-free on the red carpet now! I think the so-called "clean girl" look is a part of this whole trend of going makeup-free (even though I don't think the clean face girls are fully makeup-free).
"I don't think there's any reason at all for it to cost so much to have a nicely-groomed appearance" -- definitely agree on that. I have noticed price discrepancies in products that are aimed at men vs women where there's no reason for there to be--I buy a lot of stuff labelled for men because of this, tbh-- but that's not the same as opting into the Personal Maintenance Industry. I think it's big business that unfortunately is being normalized for men, too, which I don't see as a positive in the slightest. Celebrating that Joe Jonas is open about botox is so weird because I don't think (famous) men should be pressured into that, too!
This is not what being a man feels like at all. Quite the opposite, being a man is a constant struggle of proving and demonstrating your worth, because male worth is almost entirely wrapped up in what you do, what you provide, not what you are. Men themselves are expendable / exchangeable for greater value, indeed the most revered heroes are those that fully sacrifice themselves to some great cause.
I think where the confusion comes in is that traditional male roles offer more pathways to status and wealth. As a result we invested young men with support and training and encouragement to go do great things. But the privilege of that opportunity and support always came paired with the tremendous burden of expectation and responsibility. In the end, they still had to go out and prove themselves worthy, earn their keep and their respect.
(Obviously there exist privileged nepo-babies who are handed “worth” through no effort, but a) nepo-babies come in both sexes and b) *being* a nepo-baby is unearned privilege but *having* a nepo-baby is a lot of work for the previous generation)
I agree with a lot of this but think you’re taking it too far. I’ve been in jobs, yes fairly well compensated jobs, but not everyone working there was rich, where every woman looked “groomed” which absolutely meant make up and anyone who didn’t put on makeup would stand out. A receptionist that didn’t look “done” wasn’t going to get hired, or an HR female applicant. In fact, I’ve been in other places where there was a woman who didn’t wear make up while most did and it’s hard not to notice and think she looks bad! I’m a feminist and so deny that instinct in myself and try to compensate for it but there’s no way that most people aren’t noticing it negatively in those environments. Now, when a good third of the women don’t wear make up, that’s when you can reset your brains expectations and start to think of women’s natural faces as normal. There’s a reason representation is important - our brains are easy to trick into a new “normal.” You’re right that poor women (with certain environments still being an exception) don’t usually face this but I’d say a good half of middle class settings have these expectations and negative consequences for bucking them. It’s also very geographically specific - Colorado has a lot less make up - Bay Area has a lot less fashion - New York has lots of both. I’ve worn the same dress many times but I have been wondering if it’ll be weird to wear it to the next family party since I wore it to the last two. I don’t think it’s crazy to wonder if people will notice and think it odd - it’s just human. Dresses are a lot more unique than suits and dress shirts.
Still had more to say! I often buck expectations but most people go along with what their parents taught them was normal, and their friends and magazines and tv - and for many girls ALL those sources tell them it’s unacceptable to ignore these expectations - I don’t think it’s fair to expect most regular people to buck that and go “wait, no one is going to jail me or even yell at me, I can do what I want!” Not to mention that people want to find mates and have a good reputation.
Yes. I found myself nodding along to most of this, but took pause at that statement. We absolutely must paint our faces if we want to not be seen as a slob, and this is enforced by everyone.
People will say they prefer no makeup, but suddenly if you’re not wearing any you look “tired”.
I have absolutely heard "you look tired" way more times than I can count, myself. It's funny to see the reaction when I say, "no, I'm just not wearing makeup today." Like that's going to be a thing they remember embarrassingly for awhile.
I think I know what you mean when you say that we have to paint our faces to not be considered a slob. I think a lot of that comes down to age. I didn't look "tired" to people without makeup on nearly as often in my 20s as I have since my 30s. Now I at least need a little under eye concealer before I can clear that hurdle, lol.
I get what you're saying. Although I wonder if I was too vague in my own description of what the expectation of "putting on makeup" looked like to me, because I wonder if some of us are working with different ideas about it.
I'm just curious, so I can calibrate myself a little here, lol, can you describe more about the overall aesthetic of the women you worked with? I'm curious about like, their clothing styles and how much/what kind of makeup they wore, hairstyles, stuff like that.
Sure, it varied a fair amount and the most popular would probably be a no makeup makeup look which again varies depending on your natural features. So for me it would be mascara (because my light eyelashes are invisible otherwise but a woman with dark lashes could choose whether or not to wear it) touch of eyeshadow, and something to even out my complexion that were necessities, I’d often add blush (I’m very pale) and lipstick and eyeliner but those felt more optional. Basically no women had any visible breakout or visible bad skin, all had lovely “done” eyes though details varied. Among lower paid non attorney women the makeup and fashion would actually be higher - they’d be more likely to have more elaborate eye makeup, darker blush, acrylic nails, heels and “outfits.” Basically conservative makeup and style for attorneys, fashionable makeup and style for staff. Senior women (not that many!) were split - they might be doing just the “bare minimum” to look presentable and practical or be a lot more done up but no one I can remember did nothing on even a semi regular basis. Like a female junior attorney might wear no makeup once after an all-nighter if she wasn’t meeting clients but that’s it.
Tbh I think this is one of those things that just emerges from the lack of awareness of one’s limited understanding of other genders experiences (you might say their … lived experience). I totally get the idea of not feeling like you can opt out of fashion culture or make up or etc (or at least, get something *like* it) because there are also a million things dudes can do that will get them treated as sub-preppy and even (gasp) weird*. Many of us (and our fellow girls!) just opted to take that path out of spite or honesty.
It’d be too catty to say it’s the kind of complaint you have when you haven’t actually experience social censure. Every time I hear about girls socializing growing up I feel certain I woulda died in high school if I were one, it’s 100% a high wire act for some people. I think if anything, my actual beef is that like it’s ok to just complain without trying to find a cause.
*the monomaniacal focus guys have one the unique pain of being “creepy/gross” is half blind in the same way: as if femcels don’t exist ??
I’m sorry but the stuff you’re describing was so annoying that I couldn’t make it through. These women are unbelievably sexist. Women have to wear make-up and host baby showers?! Shadow side of tradwives if you ask me.
Lmao. That lady's rant is just outing herself as childishly clueless and poorly adjusted. Any woman that has had an intimate relationship with a man, whether as family, friend, or romantic partner, knows that that is not the male experience.
She's probably a terminally online type who gets her impression of men from male influencer types, who are generally successful and more likely to get heaped with praise... which brings us back to your point that these are all rich people problems that trickle down to the more poorly adjusted among us.
on the porch with hoodwink
Oh man, the multi-level marketing! That really is women's inhumanity to women -- men do not do that shit to each other. The vitamin supplement variant is the worst.
ItWorks might be my least favorite one, strictly because the one woman I knew who bought into that stuff for *years* was so bloody annoying about it that it ruined me on that shit for life. Not that any of it actually works, lol.
My in-laws get into this stuff once in a while. It's relatively rare for men to do it to each other, but they were really into AmWay for a while and tried to sell it to everyone, male and female alike. Ugh, you'd think people would have caught on by now!
Men don’t market crazy bullshit to each other?! Ever heard of Alex Jones and Joe Rogan?!
Ha,yeah, Alex Jones's ads for his penis supplements are pretty awful.
Sure but unless you are specifically talking to close personal friends of Joe and Alex this isn't a relevant observation. I have never met a man that tried to sell thier friends MLM shit. I'm sure those guys exist somewhere but they are vanishingly rare compared to women in that space.
Thanks for that. FWIW I’m an old, white male, so take the following as you see fit. Anyway, I grew up mostly in a small, middle-of-nowhere ranch town, the kind of place widely assumed to be a bastion of old-fashionedism. But, in general, people, both men and women, pulled their weight. Yes, conformity to gender stereotypes existed. But it didn’t dictate everything. I was exposed to many women who could hold their own doing difficult, physically taxing things. That’s what was required- all hands on deck at a branding, at the volunteer fire department, etc. Any accurate description of that milieu must include ‘egalitarian’. For overall mental health and a personal sense of freedom it beats all as a foundation. Yes, there are alternatives to being trapped by materialism and other people’s stupid social expectations.
It's interesting that she ends with "being unafraid / being unafraid." I think, to some extent, that women just feel fear & anxiety more than men, for chemical reasons. Sometimes fear is pointing out a legitimate threat, and it's useful. Sometimes it's not and you should ignore it. How can you tell the difference? That's really what being an adult is about. Sometimes you go with your emotions, sometimes you go against them. So it's hard. I think younger feminists have thrown up their hands, and basically are saying "anything that makes me afraid is evidence of a problem that needs to be solved so that I'm not afraid anymore." Well sometimes. And it may be that men are the biggest source of women's fears, but we're also kind of the solution.
I think a lot of it is rich people problems. People use money to remove all the constraints on themselves, but without constraints it's hard to make decisions, especially for women. The fewer constraints the more choices, and I've noticed that women tend to be more exhaustive, rational decision makers than men. An exhaustive decision-maker, faced with too many options, simply cannot come to a decision.
Whoa! A lot to unpack here, but very much in agreement. Your passion for these issues and investigation is inspiring!
Thanks, Kerry 🥹
Excellent. You see somewhat of a mirror on the male side. Guys taking gear, starving themselves, obsessed with the gym. When most women I’ve asked prefer a guy with a little bit of cushion, and who see gym obsession as narcissistic. Obviously there’s more expectations on women, but I think the commonality is that both groups are taking the expectations of the culture and enforcing them on their own cohort, and both sides have difficulty actually LISTENING to the members of the sex they’re interested in, then resenting them for being obtuse. It frustrates me so much with guys. I’m like “just listen, bro”. They’re so full of rage at this “straw woman” they’ve built in their head. Damn maybe I should write a male companion piece to your article. lol.
I had no idea there were still women in real life who regarded “not wearing the same dress twice” as a real rule. The only woman I have ever actually heard voicing this was Veronica Lodge in an Archie comic that came out before I was born (and I’m old).
That screenshotted list of problems was nuts — aside from periods, obviously, which I concede are terrible on a level that nothing in male experience compares to. But the other stuff just seems *really* dated. Where exactly is male anger more socially acceptable these days? A female co-worker can yell at me all she wants, but I will be fired if I yell at her — maybe even arrested.
Same thing with whose aging is sexier. A 40yo woman is a “milf” now, and a 40yo man is “creepy.” It’s not 1962 anymore.
She really thinks men don’t feel fear? Most men’s lives *revolve* around fear, including mine. At least women can *admit* they feel fear without giving everyone “the ick.”
Oh, and I admit this is uncommon, but I do my household’s laundry 100% of the time. I don’t get why laundry isn’t seen as a male-coded chore: it involves carrying heavy baskets up and down stairs. I’m not going to make my wife do that.
P.S., suppose you *want* to coo at babies, but you can’t because you’ll be called a f*g.
There’s a paradox of wealth here - you trade up in stressors. You don’t have to worry about money but now you have to worry about what people with money think about you. That’s actually a pretty shitty trade if you’re already doing ok and not ready to play the mean rich girl game, which is absolutely savage in that women bully quite artfully with absolute plausible deniability at all times. That’s why she thinks that these aren’t choices she has made. She’s been convinced, by women (and gay men), surreptitiously, that these rules apply to her and that she will be viciously punished for not following them. Or maybe she was born into it and it’s a cage she’s lived in from the start.
Life has a way of handing you a much harder challenge when you level up. For women that often means the new challenge is a new level of mean girl to endure.
What jumps out at me is this woman's fear. Of what, exactly? Street crime, or wearing the same dress twice? She repeats "being unafraid" as if this is some sort of glorious male privilege. It's true that men are less afraid of becoming victims of crime (my husband once took me on a terrifying midnight stroll through Central Park in NYC, but that's another story). Men are afraid of a lot of things. They die earlier and are at a far higher risk of suicide. You correctly point out that her particular issues are mostly no one's fault but her own.
Yes, I agree. And if I'm not mistaken, in pretty sure men make up the majority of victims of violent crime and random attacks.
And it's because they enjoy late night walks in dangerous places 😆
I disagree slightly. Men are less afraid than women, because being afraid is a luxury that gets trained out of us
Pardon the stereotyping, but:
Her: “I’m afraid”. Response: “How terrible for you! How can I fix it?”
Him: “I’m afraid”. Response: “We can’t let that stop you. Can you overcome it yourself of do you need help?”
Actually, that’s a man’s response. I’ll let you imagine how a woman might respond to him
This applies more generally. “Fix it for me” is never a masculine response, unless it’s some sort of trade. “Teach me” is fine
Exactly. A woman's problems are society's problems. A man's problems are his own.
I could not disagree more with the appearance/make-up aspect. I just don't really get this idea that there is no burden on women to adhere to certain beauty standards -- and even if it is perpetuated by women, I don't think it's not worth talking about? Because how else can we tell fellow women that it's not okay without talking about it? Perhaps I have misunderstood feminism entirely, but a lot of that discourse I always saw as a way to tell/educate women that policing each other's looks is harmful--not blaming men for it.
Personally, I've only ever been dismissed for being ugly by men, had my opinions disregarded because of it (and that's not me projecting, that's what they said. Women who aren't attractive or making an effort to be do not warrant consideration to some men.) The complaints from men about how women on dating apps can get whatever they want is based on a very specific female archetype that doesn't account for the majority of women out there. Most of us are not super attractive and turning men away at every turn (OK, that may be my bitterness breaking through...) I can't even count the amount of men who have been disgusted with women's leg hair -- and yes, there are actually plenty of men who say they don't care (though I wonder how they would feel about the Mediterranean hirsute ladies) but that doesn't really change what the norm is.
WRT Pamela and famous women who "opt in" -- I think there is something to be said for public figures being used as a guide for how regular women appear/dress as well. It normalizes a certain appearance and style that isn't utilitarian or realistic, but the more you see it, the more you expect it. It's a bit like the instagram brain rot that has set expectations at a level that reality cannot possibly live up to--except perpetuated via mainstream media.
I was going to say that I could write an essay about this, but this did already get pretty long, so maybe I did.... Anyway, I hope it's not coming off as too combative, I just actually do not comprehend the idea that there is no pressure on women to at least try to live up to a certain beauty standard--whether that's enforced by men or not.
You're not coming off as combative at all. I know what you mean, and I don't disagree with you about beauty standards in general. I think where I personally get hung up on these arguments is on the specifics that people cite, like makeup, hair, nails, and body hair removal specifically, because they're usually paired with complaints about how much those things cost to maintain. I see a *lot* of complaints about the maintenance required to attract or keep a man center on things like spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars to get professionally waxed, fake nails, pro hair dye jobs and cuts, and expensive makeup, and I guess I have never seen any of things as necessary in any way, and have only heard from men that, half the time, they don't even notice specifics like this. It's not that I don't think it's expected of me or other women to look attractive in some capacity, but I don't think any of those specifics are what really contribute to attractiveness, and I don't think there's any reason at all for it to cost so much to have a nicely-groomed appearance, which I think is what we all expect of everyone to some degree, male and female alike. Spending $150 on nails doesn't seem to me like any kind of burden when one could be filing and buffing and painting their own, for example, and it would be much cheaper. Not that I think there's anything wrong with spending that money regularly, either, just that it's 100% an option, and there are other options available to achieve the same end result. Same with hair. I don't think anyone but very observant and paranoid wealthy men are going to notice the difference between a $35 salon trim and a $200 one, either.
I think you're right about what public figures doing trickling down to the rest of us in a way that normalizes changes, like how Pamela Anderson is going makeup-free on the red carpet now! I think the so-called "clean girl" look is a part of this whole trend of going makeup-free (even though I don't think the clean face girls are fully makeup-free).
"I don't think there's any reason at all for it to cost so much to have a nicely-groomed appearance" -- definitely agree on that. I have noticed price discrepancies in products that are aimed at men vs women where there's no reason for there to be--I buy a lot of stuff labelled for men because of this, tbh-- but that's not the same as opting into the Personal Maintenance Industry. I think it's big business that unfortunately is being normalized for men, too, which I don't see as a positive in the slightest. Celebrating that Joe Jonas is open about botox is so weird because I don't think (famous) men should be pressured into that, too!
“Being taught from birth that you are worthy”
This is not what being a man feels like at all. Quite the opposite, being a man is a constant struggle of proving and demonstrating your worth, because male worth is almost entirely wrapped up in what you do, what you provide, not what you are. Men themselves are expendable / exchangeable for greater value, indeed the most revered heroes are those that fully sacrifice themselves to some great cause.
I think where the confusion comes in is that traditional male roles offer more pathways to status and wealth. As a result we invested young men with support and training and encouragement to go do great things. But the privilege of that opportunity and support always came paired with the tremendous burden of expectation and responsibility. In the end, they still had to go out and prove themselves worthy, earn their keep and their respect.
(Obviously there exist privileged nepo-babies who are handed “worth” through no effort, but a) nepo-babies come in both sexes and b) *being* a nepo-baby is unearned privilege but *having* a nepo-baby is a lot of work for the previous generation)
3
I agree with a lot of this but think you’re taking it too far. I’ve been in jobs, yes fairly well compensated jobs, but not everyone working there was rich, where every woman looked “groomed” which absolutely meant make up and anyone who didn’t put on makeup would stand out. A receptionist that didn’t look “done” wasn’t going to get hired, or an HR female applicant. In fact, I’ve been in other places where there was a woman who didn’t wear make up while most did and it’s hard not to notice and think she looks bad! I’m a feminist and so deny that instinct in myself and try to compensate for it but there’s no way that most people aren’t noticing it negatively in those environments. Now, when a good third of the women don’t wear make up, that’s when you can reset your brains expectations and start to think of women’s natural faces as normal. There’s a reason representation is important - our brains are easy to trick into a new “normal.” You’re right that poor women (with certain environments still being an exception) don’t usually face this but I’d say a good half of middle class settings have these expectations and negative consequences for bucking them. It’s also very geographically specific - Colorado has a lot less make up - Bay Area has a lot less fashion - New York has lots of both. I’ve worn the same dress many times but I have been wondering if it’ll be weird to wear it to the next family party since I wore it to the last two. I don’t think it’s crazy to wonder if people will notice and think it odd - it’s just human. Dresses are a lot more unique than suits and dress shirts.
Still had more to say! I often buck expectations but most people go along with what their parents taught them was normal, and their friends and magazines and tv - and for many girls ALL those sources tell them it’s unacceptable to ignore these expectations - I don’t think it’s fair to expect most regular people to buck that and go “wait, no one is going to jail me or even yell at me, I can do what I want!” Not to mention that people want to find mates and have a good reputation.
Yes. I found myself nodding along to most of this, but took pause at that statement. We absolutely must paint our faces if we want to not be seen as a slob, and this is enforced by everyone.
People will say they prefer no makeup, but suddenly if you’re not wearing any you look “tired”.
I have absolutely heard "you look tired" way more times than I can count, myself. It's funny to see the reaction when I say, "no, I'm just not wearing makeup today." Like that's going to be a thing they remember embarrassingly for awhile.
I think I know what you mean when you say that we have to paint our faces to not be considered a slob. I think a lot of that comes down to age. I didn't look "tired" to people without makeup on nearly as often in my 20s as I have since my 30s. Now I at least need a little under eye concealer before I can clear that hurdle, lol.
I get what you're saying. Although I wonder if I was too vague in my own description of what the expectation of "putting on makeup" looked like to me, because I wonder if some of us are working with different ideas about it.
I'm just curious, so I can calibrate myself a little here, lol, can you describe more about the overall aesthetic of the women you worked with? I'm curious about like, their clothing styles and how much/what kind of makeup they wore, hairstyles, stuff like that.
Sure, it varied a fair amount and the most popular would probably be a no makeup makeup look which again varies depending on your natural features. So for me it would be mascara (because my light eyelashes are invisible otherwise but a woman with dark lashes could choose whether or not to wear it) touch of eyeshadow, and something to even out my complexion that were necessities, I’d often add blush (I’m very pale) and lipstick and eyeliner but those felt more optional. Basically no women had any visible breakout or visible bad skin, all had lovely “done” eyes though details varied. Among lower paid non attorney women the makeup and fashion would actually be higher - they’d be more likely to have more elaborate eye makeup, darker blush, acrylic nails, heels and “outfits.” Basically conservative makeup and style for attorneys, fashionable makeup and style for staff. Senior women (not that many!) were split - they might be doing just the “bare minimum” to look presentable and practical or be a lot more done up but no one I can remember did nothing on even a semi regular basis. Like a female junior attorney might wear no makeup once after an all-nighter if she wasn’t meeting clients but that’s it.
Tbh I think this is one of those things that just emerges from the lack of awareness of one’s limited understanding of other genders experiences (you might say their … lived experience). I totally get the idea of not feeling like you can opt out of fashion culture or make up or etc (or at least, get something *like* it) because there are also a million things dudes can do that will get them treated as sub-preppy and even (gasp) weird*. Many of us (and our fellow girls!) just opted to take that path out of spite or honesty.
It’d be too catty to say it’s the kind of complaint you have when you haven’t actually experience social censure. Every time I hear about girls socializing growing up I feel certain I woulda died in high school if I were one, it’s 100% a high wire act for some people. I think if anything, my actual beef is that like it’s ok to just complain without trying to find a cause.
*the monomaniacal focus guys have one the unique pain of being “creepy/gross” is half blind in the same way: as if femcels don’t exist ??
I’m sorry but the stuff you’re describing was so annoying that I couldn’t make it through. These women are unbelievably sexist. Women have to wear make-up and host baby showers?! Shadow side of tradwives if you ask me.
>men being taught from birth that they are worthy
Lmao. That lady's rant is just outing herself as childishly clueless and poorly adjusted. Any woman that has had an intimate relationship with a man, whether as family, friend, or romantic partner, knows that that is not the male experience.
She's probably a terminally online type who gets her impression of men from male influencer types, who are generally successful and more likely to get heaped with praise... which brings us back to your point that these are all rich people problems that trickle down to the more poorly adjusted among us.