The only difference between the Christian feminist and the conservative feminist is that the Christian feminist is a virgin and probably unknowingly dating a closeted gay guy, while the conservative feminist has had penises/children in her vagina.
"and don’t get me started on political labels for anything left of center. They are not all “liberals” and a good chunk of the left deeply loathe actual liberals. They are also not all leftists — liberals fucking hate leftists almost as much as leftists hate leftists."
Lol, feels like this rubric could be applied to the tribes right of center, just change the name/placeholder. Hate all the way down.
As always great essay, fun to read and soooo educational. I've always been a bit mystified hearing a women claim/state she's a 'feminist' and my intuition asking 'Sure, but which kind or type are you?' I was foolish enough to ask only once and have been in the twilight ever since.
The thing is there's actually a difference between liberals and leftists. Basically, leftists want socialism; they want to dismantle capitalism and things like free speech are secondary. Liberals are more interested in freedom and tend to be OK with capitalism, they just want a bigger welfare state.
I get the underlying political moorings and desired end goals, that foundation I've always been aware of.
It was how the ‘feminist' stacked onto the different political congregations and have since morphed into new modes and expressions, which I've lost track of since moving back to a rural community over a decade ago. My illiteracy is largely due to not being in the urban/academic environs where these defined groups would just be understood.
All the same (and I say this with tongue firmly in cheek) thanks for ‘man-splaining’ all the above and below, the benefit of your study and sharing it so freely is appreciated, truly. 😃
Since I can't identify your sex from your pseudonym it's not clear how I'm mansplaining. ;) (Cigarettes are still kind of male-coded, I always thought.)
I think you're better off with your rural people...
And I don't think most people grasp the whole liberal-leftist distinction on the center-left. 'Liberal' tends to be used by most people as a term for anyone on the left side of the political spectrum, which annoys leftists to no end.
To be safe and straight forward, I was being cheeky about ‘man-splaining’. I appreciate the refresher on political divisions as they've gotten blurred in Canada, at least, what with the ‘Liberal’ policies going harder to the left and leftist after 10 years. I won't keep you in suspense, I'm male. And I admit I assumed your gender based on your handle. It's been eye opening to hear younger generations of women refer to themselves as ‘guys’ and ‘dudes’ at times, it’s their fluidity with labels I suppose.
Oh, you're Canadian? Then you have to go through the whole division between the American use of 'liberal' to mean 'left of center' and the rest of the world's use of the word to mean 'pro-capitalist but socially tolerant', which we call 'libertarian'. ('Libertarian' in the rest of the world is used to mean 'anarchist'--our use is closer to 'anarcho-capitalist'.)
I'm male. I just thought it was funny. Women used to think that was an automatic 'win the argument' card--and in some places, it still is. But if I don't work for you, I don't have to do what you say.
And even then there's a difference between leftists that are coming from Marxist tradition and leftists coming from New Left tradition.
They hated each other too
Leftists coming from New Left tradition tbh are basically liberals by any other name because they just want progressivism but more "progressive" + when pushes comes to shove they become good little neoliberals (If they have to choose between "economic left social right" & "economic right social left" they'll pick the latter 11 out of 10), while Marxist-based are strict materialist.
By that I mean social framework of leftists that are coming from Marxist tradition and leftists coming from New Left tradition are completely different.
Let's also not discount economically left people that comes from socially conservative ontology as well.
Very true! What's the old joke about a progressive firing squad being a circle?
From what I remember reading the point of the New Left was to get away from the focus on economics, so it makes sense. Blame Marcuse. You occasionally see progressives talk about 'reactionary Marxists', 'manarchists', or 'brocialists', and I think this is what they are talking about.
Catholic social thought is one of those interesting examples of 'economic left social right' you never seem to hear much about. It's starting to see something of an upswing on the right now but never gains much momentum, I think because the donors are too powerful. Since a lot of the USA is pretty religious and socially conservative it might be pretty powerful, which I think is why the conventional elites try so hard to keep people from thinking about it. Trump appealed to some of this bloc and I think it's a big reason he was so successful.
In general elites either HATE social conservatism or hate the notion that they have to sacrifice money to pay off people for socially conservative lifestyle (Pulling up the ladder basically).
It totally could be applied to right-of-center ideologies. I considered writing one of those, too, but I'll have to leave it to the real right-wingers to come up with that. I'm much closer to the obnoxious idiosyncrasies of the left
I'm reading a book on feminist theory, and this basically tracks. Well done! Liberal and radical are more or less as you claim, though there's a split between radical-cultural that's closer to your radfem and radical-libertarian that's closer to your intersectional (which is also a type). Woman-of-color and global/postcolonial sort of converged into your intersectional feminist, more or less. Care-focused and maternal-focused kind of evolved into your conservative feminist. Ecofeminists are your hippie feminist.
There's also a large Marxist contingent, as with anything left.
There were other branches like psychoanalytic and poststructuralist you never hear from anymore.
Your egalitarian has basically left the movement. ;)
I'm genuinely curious which book you're reading. When I read this post, I immediately thought of Pinkpilled (which is on my wishlist but has not yet been acquired because I would like to try to read some of my other books first).
Other thing I'd like to add (for the benefit of your conservative readers, I think you know) is that 'liberal' isn't just an attack word for someone on the left of the political spectrum--it's an actual philosophy involving individual rights and liberty. A leftist is more focused on economic and social equality and actually wants to overthrow capitalism. (Compare, say, Matt Yglesias and Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez.)
> wants artificial wombs because Mother Nature is actually an oppressor, too (gender traitor);
I know that language is mostly tribal signalling and you’re not supposed to reason about it, but if Mother Nature isn’t an oppressor, what or who is? If she had her way, we’d still be living in the Paleolithic; I mean, those young and tough enough to be still alive. Every piece of technological progress and every step we took away from the state of nature was an act of rebellion against Mother Nature and a betrayal of the natural order of things.
Definitely a good point here. But you go too far and nature creates blowback. She rules in the end. Best make friends with her rather than try to make her obey
I found that the real differentiation between egalitarian feminists & say liberal / intersectional feminist in practice is basically when confronted with the man question.
If you have deeper thoughts, opinion or "well what we should do" or inquiry than "Well men should be more open to their emotions" schtick that are actually is surprisingly rational, fair, balanced & respectful of men's nature - by that I mean no gaslighting and OK with the notion of men peacefully pursuing their interests just as they themselves does - then you're an egalitarian feminists.
Good question... they're probably somewhere between the less insane Egalitarians and Radfems. But, tbf, I was never really into that whole scene so my placement is entirely based on vibes.
I couldn't figure out who I am anymore, so I suppose I now identify as covert Tomi Lahren (another level). I have probably existed in one of these camps for my last 30 years as an adult uterus haver. Great writing, as usual.
I think it could be the basis for one. She's listed a couple of types actual feminists would never claim, but that's useful because it lists types on the right who see themselves as representing women's interests.
I'm only sitting here writing a lot because I think it's very, very good and would love to see the sociological observations backed up with some kind of data analysis trained on web data or something--for starters you could do network analyses seeing who links to whom. But sentiment analysis is tricky and I don't have the technical background.
I’m so out of the loop I assumed pussy hats were hats that looked like giant vaginas. I was busy with work at the time and I didn’t investigate this better. These hats look harmless, I’d wear them
Wow I was insulted with NLOG all my life to the extent that I started believing feminists didn’t serve my needs any more. Started calling myself humanist and shit 🥲
I’m sympathetic to Rowling style radfems though. I see where they are coming from. We are forgetting what they fought against.
I read through it all I feel like I don’t fall in any list, I don’t care about evopsych enough. Is that a necessity for being a NLOG
Having been sexually abused I do get where the radfems are coming from. But I’m not obsessed with any cause per se. I would love an artificial womb but I would also love to experience air transport while completely asleep. Door to door.
So maybe there should be a tech feminist like the nature one?
My evo-psych-influenced suspicion is that there just aren't *that* many women that into technology. There are some, of course, but having been handed the equivalent of a winning lottery ticket in the sexual market they probably just marry a successful techie and don't get involved in gender wars.
I don't think they're that influential and don't have their own ideology, really. They either fall from grace for some real or imagined transgression (Joss Whedon, Neil Gaiman, Hugo Schwyzer), turn into MRAs (Warren Farrell) or just get forgotten.
I have archived this for future reference, and if push comes to shove, will claim to not know you.
Camille Paglia would love this!
Paglia would probably count as an egalitarian.
The only difference between the Christian feminist and the conservative feminist is that the Christian feminist is a virgin and probably unknowingly dating a closeted gay guy, while the conservative feminist has had penises/children in her vagina.
"and don’t get me started on political labels for anything left of center. They are not all “liberals” and a good chunk of the left deeply loathe actual liberals. They are also not all leftists — liberals fucking hate leftists almost as much as leftists hate leftists."
Lol, feels like this rubric could be applied to the tribes right of center, just change the name/placeholder. Hate all the way down.
As always great essay, fun to read and soooo educational. I've always been a bit mystified hearing a women claim/state she's a 'feminist' and my intuition asking 'Sure, but which kind or type are you?' I was foolish enough to ask only once and have been in the twilight ever since.
The thing is there's actually a difference between liberals and leftists. Basically, leftists want socialism; they want to dismantle capitalism and things like free speech are secondary. Liberals are more interested in freedom and tend to be OK with capitalism, they just want a bigger welfare state.
Here's Nate Silver on it: https://www.natesilver.net/p/why-liberalism-and-leftism-are-increasingly
On the right you roughly have the libertarian, Christian, and populist/vitalist streams. And they often dislike each other as well, as you say.
I get the underlying political moorings and desired end goals, that foundation I've always been aware of.
It was how the ‘feminist' stacked onto the different political congregations and have since morphed into new modes and expressions, which I've lost track of since moving back to a rural community over a decade ago. My illiteracy is largely due to not being in the urban/academic environs where these defined groups would just be understood.
All the same (and I say this with tongue firmly in cheek) thanks for ‘man-splaining’ all the above and below, the benefit of your study and sharing it so freely is appreciated, truly. 😃
Since I can't identify your sex from your pseudonym it's not clear how I'm mansplaining. ;) (Cigarettes are still kind of male-coded, I always thought.)
I think you're better off with your rural people...
And I don't think most people grasp the whole liberal-leftist distinction on the center-left. 'Liberal' tends to be used by most people as a term for anyone on the left side of the political spectrum, which annoys leftists to no end.
To be safe and straight forward, I was being cheeky about ‘man-splaining’. I appreciate the refresher on political divisions as they've gotten blurred in Canada, at least, what with the ‘Liberal’ policies going harder to the left and leftist after 10 years. I won't keep you in suspense, I'm male. And I admit I assumed your gender based on your handle. It's been eye opening to hear younger generations of women refer to themselves as ‘guys’ and ‘dudes’ at times, it’s their fluidity with labels I suppose.
Oh, you're Canadian? Then you have to go through the whole division between the American use of 'liberal' to mean 'left of center' and the rest of the world's use of the word to mean 'pro-capitalist but socially tolerant', which we call 'libertarian'. ('Libertarian' in the rest of the world is used to mean 'anarchist'--our use is closer to 'anarcho-capitalist'.)
I'm male. I just thought it was funny. Women used to think that was an automatic 'win the argument' card--and in some places, it still is. But if I don't work for you, I don't have to do what you say.
And even then there's a difference between leftists that are coming from Marxist tradition and leftists coming from New Left tradition.
They hated each other too
Leftists coming from New Left tradition tbh are basically liberals by any other name because they just want progressivism but more "progressive" + when pushes comes to shove they become good little neoliberals (If they have to choose between "economic left social right" & "economic right social left" they'll pick the latter 11 out of 10), while Marxist-based are strict materialist.
By that I mean social framework of leftists that are coming from Marxist tradition and leftists coming from New Left tradition are completely different.
Let's also not discount economically left people that comes from socially conservative ontology as well.
Very true! What's the old joke about a progressive firing squad being a circle?
From what I remember reading the point of the New Left was to get away from the focus on economics, so it makes sense. Blame Marcuse. You occasionally see progressives talk about 'reactionary Marxists', 'manarchists', or 'brocialists', and I think this is what they are talking about.
Catholic social thought is one of those interesting examples of 'economic left social right' you never seem to hear much about. It's starting to see something of an upswing on the right now but never gains much momentum, I think because the donors are too powerful. Since a lot of the USA is pretty religious and socially conservative it might be pretty powerful, which I think is why the conventional elites try so hard to keep people from thinking about it. Trump appealed to some of this bloc and I think it's a big reason he was so successful.
I think it's also temperament.
In general elites either HATE social conservatism or hate the notion that they have to sacrifice money to pay off people for socially conservative lifestyle (Pulling up the ladder basically).
It totally could be applied to right-of-center ideologies. I considered writing one of those, too, but I'll have to leave it to the real right-wingers to come up with that. I'm much closer to the obnoxious idiosyncrasies of the left
I'm reading a book on feminist theory, and this basically tracks. Well done! Liberal and radical are more or less as you claim, though there's a split between radical-cultural that's closer to your radfem and radical-libertarian that's closer to your intersectional (which is also a type). Woman-of-color and global/postcolonial sort of converged into your intersectional feminist, more or less. Care-focused and maternal-focused kind of evolved into your conservative feminist. Ecofeminists are your hippie feminist.
There's also a large Marxist contingent, as with anything left.
There were other branches like psychoanalytic and poststructuralist you never hear from anymore.
Your egalitarian has basically left the movement. ;)
I'm genuinely curious which book you're reading. When I read this post, I immediately thought of Pinkpilled (which is on my wishlist but has not yet been acquired because I would like to try to read some of my other books first).
Other thing I'd like to add (for the benefit of your conservative readers, I think you know) is that 'liberal' isn't just an attack word for someone on the left of the political spectrum--it's an actual philosophy involving individual rights and liberty. A leftist is more focused on economic and social equality and actually wants to overthrow capitalism. (Compare, say, Matt Yglesias and Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez.)
> wants artificial wombs because Mother Nature is actually an oppressor, too (gender traitor);
I know that language is mostly tribal signalling and you’re not supposed to reason about it, but if Mother Nature isn’t an oppressor, what or who is? If she had her way, we’d still be living in the Paleolithic; I mean, those young and tough enough to be still alive. Every piece of technological progress and every step we took away from the state of nature was an act of rebellion against Mother Nature and a betrayal of the natural order of things.
Mother Nature is even more hardcore if you regard us as her natural manifestation.
There’s nothing more natural than oppression.
Definitely a good point here. But you go too far and nature creates blowback. She rules in the end. Best make friends with her rather than try to make her obey
I found that the real differentiation between egalitarian feminists & say liberal / intersectional feminist in practice is basically when confronted with the man question.
If you have deeper thoughts, opinion or "well what we should do" or inquiry than "Well men should be more open to their emotions" schtick that are actually is surprisingly rational, fair, balanced & respectful of men's nature - by that I mean no gaslighting and OK with the notion of men peacefully pursuing their interests just as they themselves does - then you're an egalitarian feminists.
Awesome piece!
I wish you’d given example of popular figures in each, like you did with Tomi (great call on that one).
I would’ve loved to see where you’d have placed certain people.
Where do Kathleen Hannah and riot grrrl punk bands fit into this scheme?
Good question... they're probably somewhere between the less insane Egalitarians and Radfems. But, tbf, I was never really into that whole scene so my placement is entirely based on vibes.
I couldn't figure out who I am anymore, so I suppose I now identify as covert Tomi Lahren (another level). I have probably existed in one of these camps for my last 30 years as an adult uterus haver. Great writing, as usual.
Thank you, fellow adult uterus-haver. There's a little of me in each of those subtypes, too 🥲
I opened this thinking it was going to be a serious scholarly article. Was I naive? Not that I was disappointed, very enjoyable read.
Tomi Lahren, now there’s a name I didn’t mind having forgotten entirely..
I think it could be the basis for one. She's listed a couple of types actual feminists would never claim, but that's useful because it lists types on the right who see themselves as representing women's interests.
I'm only sitting here writing a lot because I think it's very, very good and would love to see the sociological observations backed up with some kind of data analysis trained on web data or something--for starters you could do network analyses seeing who links to whom. But sentiment analysis is tricky and I don't have the technical background.
In hindsight, the subtitle should have been "a roast."
...I just changed it, lol. Much better.
I’m so out of the loop I assumed pussy hats were hats that looked like giant vaginas. I was busy with work at the time and I didn’t investigate this better. These hats look harmless, I’d wear them
Wow I was insulted with NLOG all my life to the extent that I started believing feminists didn’t serve my needs any more. Started calling myself humanist and shit 🥲
I’m sympathetic to Rowling style radfems though. I see where they are coming from. We are forgetting what they fought against.
I read through it all I feel like I don’t fall in any list, I don’t care about evopsych enough. Is that a necessity for being a NLOG
Having been sexually abused I do get where the radfems are coming from. But I’m not obsessed with any cause per se. I would love an artificial womb but I would also love to experience air transport while completely asleep. Door to door.
So maybe there should be a tech feminist like the nature one?
Tech feminist! Yes that totally sounds be a category.
I don't think being into evopsych is necessary for being a reclaimed NLOG. That was just my personal post-feminist rabbit hole, lol
Oh that’s good. Then I’ll stick to NLOG. 🫢😌
It's an artifact of time and place, but I hear NLOG in the voice of Jerry Garcia singing Scarlet Begonias.
There was Donna Haraway and cyberfeminism. Apparently it was influential on other strands but never really became a major movement.
You can see if any of these names ring a bell:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberfeminism
My evo-psych-influenced suspicion is that there just aren't *that* many women that into technology. There are some, of course, but having been handed the equivalent of a winning lottery ticket in the sexual market they probably just marry a successful techie and don't get involved in gender wars.
I did the same thing! It's a rough world out there for the NLOGs 😂
The older pussy hat fems mostly resent the fact that they wouldn’t have a comfortable lifestyle without hubby working his nuts off
Not to be patriarchal, but you forgot male feminists.
That's not just patriarchal, that's *mansplaining*! I will sic the libfems on you for this one, buddy
I don't think they're that influential and don't have their own ideology, really. They either fall from grace for some real or imagined transgression (Joss Whedon, Neil Gaiman, Hugo Schwyzer), turn into MRAs (Warren Farrell) or just get forgotten.